Help with building your Speeduino, installing it, getting it to run etc.
#67063
Rednaxs60 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:04 amThe AFRs you mention are quite lean, wouldn't have thought I should lean out that much.
You are "trying" AFRs. We avoid that. We find AFRs, and I think you'll be amazed how lean they can go efficiently. So, I understand it's tough to monitor and change VE values while cruising alone, but otherwise you'll need to ride, log stable cruise at a specific load & rpm of perhaps 60 kph, then stop, review and change the block of VEs on the side of the road and repeat to find the leanest stable cruise (just rich of lean surge). Once found, enter the AFR that resulted in the table, and move immediately to tuning the ignition at that same AFR block area for minimum MAP. Then that area is tuned for maximum efficiency.

This is the same process the factories have used for many decades, even back to old points distributor days with vacuum advance. That's what the vacuum advance was for - to add that extra timing required for efficient and safe part-throttle lean cruise.

The process to find stable lean cruise is quick if you can find a way to do the block of VE value changes on-the-fly while you drive. Perhaps a tuning buddy to drive while you handle tuning? If not, I've done it alone like many others, and finding the cruise AFRs and timing from 30 to 110 kph should take less than an hour if flying solo.
#67069
@PSIG - only using the AFR readings to indicate the fuel quantity being poured into the engine.

Was thinking about the CFI system before I started this project. The Travel Computer fuel management system is the closest to monitoring the amount of fuel being used and how the AFR is affected. The bike routinely got 15 to 18 Kms per litre around town, sometimes less depending. On the highway (have a few around town) I would travel in the 16 to 18 Kms per litre range and sometimes upwards of 20-21 Kms per litre. Didn't strike me at the time to think of AFR, how lean the engine was operating or anything else - just wanted good fuel economy. I did monitor the fuel tank capacity and range with the fuel management system. I noticed early on that when the fuel tank capacity was getting quite low (21 litre tank and at the pump put in some 20.8 litres - did this a couple of times), the engine operating temp would start to increase and there was the related cylinder misfires every now and then.

The closest I have come to AFR readings is in the snowmobile world. OEMs routinely have the engines oil-fuel rich to save the engine from us mere mortals. Tuned my snowmobiles by changing the oil-fuel (oil injection) mixture and monitoring the plugs. This process worked well. Skidoo went one step further with its two strokes to meet emission standards. It changed the oil-fuel mixture to lean the engine out so that you would only use a certain amount of oil in so many hours/miles. The caveat was that Skidoo had to do the engine tune, not the operator, otherwise no warranty on the engine. For myself, just mentioning that 15.5/16.0 AFR to get some new numbers surprised me.

Will figure out how to put your action plan in place, seems logical. Hate to stop riding every now and then as it interrupts a good ride 8-) :D .
#67070
@PSIG - the process - what I am doing and what you recommend:

Do a VEA of the data log, with the AFR reading of 15.0 for the 6 by 8 matrix of VE cell values involved. Copy paste these in the VE table and save. Road trial, at a given speed/RPM, stop review in MLV, update VE block being looked at to suit (cut and paste), continue on road at same speed. Using minimum MAP as a guide. When I am satisfied I have the best possible for the trial at hand, change AFR to match and tune ignition timing.

Will start at 15.0 because of the 14.7 stoich ratio. Do a VEA at 15.0/15.5/16.0 to start - can be anywhere in between.

I understand why it has been mentioned that the Speeduino ECU has all the bells and whistles to get an engine tune as good as an OEM engine tune, but the amount of time and effort can be a detractor from this happening. However, anything worth doing is worth doing right.

The gentlemen and/or ladies on this forum are serious task masters 8-) :D

As an aside, what is meant by: "MLV in that rpm/kPa block above, at 15.5:1, Hard, above 70° and 2k rpm on your last log". What is meant regarding "Hard" and above 70?

Cheers
#67071
Did some testing in MLV regarding AFR numbers, and saving the tune loaded. Think I have the MLV process figured out. The following is my understanding of how I should proceed with the road trial(s). The RPM/Kpa block is from 56 to 90 Kpa and 2000 to 4500 RPM, an 8 by 6 matrix:

1. Road trial at determined speed and RPM, stop, review and change the block of VEs.
2. The data log is loaded into MLV.
3. Open tune for the table values.
4. The AFR table area in question should have the existing AFR cell values.
5. Change the AFR table cell values to the new value required, in this case start at 15.0:1, road trial. AFR cell values to be used are 15.0:1 (start), 15.5:1/16.0:1/16.5:1.
5. Do a VEA.
6. Accept new VE table.
7. "Save Tune" or "Save Tune As" - "Save Tune As" is preferable so that each tune iteration can be reviewed as required . Ensure the tune name is changed. The VE Table cell values in the 1000 to 2000 RPM below the area being tuned should not change enough to make a difference at this time.
8. Load new tune to ECU.
9. Start data logging (new data log name) for new engine tune.
10. Engine start, and road test at same speed and engine RPM. Monitor MAP.

Found the definition of "lean surge". "Lean surge is typically related to a lean mixture (read typical factory jetting) and occurs when cruising along at steady state speeds with small throttle openings. You can actually feel the bike pull and then pause, pull and pause" and so on. Lots of tuning jargon to still learn.

I had mentioned I now have my tablet, a Panasonic Toughbook (2 in 1) and it's mounted where the Travel Computer usually is. Pictures of the screens:
TS on Tablet - 7 Feb 2024.JPG
TS on Tablet - 7 Feb 2024.JPG (94.48 KiB) Viewed 2449 times
MLV on Tablet - 7 Feb 2024.JPG
MLV on Tablet - 7 Feb 2024.JPG (90.94 KiB) Viewed 2449 times
Cheers
#67073
Nice to have that tablet view right there! If it's the registered TS, then you can size your gauges by importance and other features that may make readability in various conditions easier. You can also swap screens (dashboards) between tuning, diagnostics, and general driving. Lots you can do with it.

Rednaxs60 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:10 pmWill start at 15.0 because of the 14.7 stoich ratio. Do a VEA at 15.0/15.5/16.0 to start - can be anywhere in between.
It could land anywhere, and I've had Hondas well into the 17s and running into 18s, but the most efficient was typically in the mid-16s-ish. I want to be careful to not steer some readers to think they could just plug-in 16.x and it'll be close and good enough... no, please don't do that, for several reasons. Find your best AFRs. That's tuning. Otherwise you're an engine adjuster with goals no better than "OK".

Rednaxs60 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:10 pmI understand why it has been mentioned that the Speeduino ECU has all the bells and whistles to get an engine tune as good as an OEM engine tune, but the amount of time and effort can be a detractor from this happening.
Use the tuning tools. They give both better results and much faster. As you get used to them, it really speeds-up the process to the goals. What seems like advanced tuning now, will become just how you do it. Learn all you can about MLV especially. It makes you a wizard if you use it well. 8-)

Rednaxs60 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:10 pmThe gentlemen and/or ladies on this forum are serious task masters 8-) :D
I don't mean to be perceived as that, but have found repeatedly the greatest hurdle for new tuners is not grasping the concepts of the tasks, then focusing on the tasks for best and quickest results. Once you've done a couple project tunes with several "AHA!" moments, you'll have the vision to get a complete tune, top-to-bottom, really good, in a weekend.

A different way to look at that is the tuner. If it could be done in a few days, then why isn't it done yet? That part is on you, not the system or programs. See the last paragraph. ;)

Rednaxs60 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:10 pmAs an aside, what is meant by: "MLV in that rpm/kPa block above, at 15.5:1, Hard, above 70° and 2k rpm on your last log". What is meant regarding "Hard" and above 70?
They are MLV VEA settings. This raises the point about knowing the programs. While you can't "know" them very well yet, you can review all the settings for each function, such as VEA. Look for info on the EFIAnalytics site, and catch some videos. Every setting in VEA is important in order to tune the right areas, in the right ways for quick success. The wrong setting can have your going in circles (is it done yet? :lol:). Lambda delay, Hard, and temperatures are a few of those settings you need to look at. ;)
#67075
@PSIG - going to get there, and I'm not one of the good enough crowd. I am one of the slow and steady wins the race crowd. I will get to a point where the engine tune is "good enough", and I will want to read and enjoy the bike. I will treat the engine tuning aspect as a mini work period. Ride and enjoy the bike, mini work period (review and adjust engine tune as necessary) - road trial(s), ride and enjoy the bike, repeat as necessary. Works well for bike maintenance as well.

As for being a serious task master, tongue in cheek of course. Had many a Navy instructor that were just this. It's always in a person's best interest. :lol: 8-)

It is the registered TS and MLV versions. Need the tablet for the RPM indication at this time.

Appreciate the insight into the AFR readings. New, inexperienced "tuners" such as myself may get to your recommendations, but at a much slower pace. Don't want to grenade the engine prematurely. Your recommendation(s) will get a person to the end game sooner. Mr Honda had motorcycle and car engineers designing the Gold Wing, a lot of car influence into the design of the engine.

Honda designed the engine so that max timing advance of 38 degrees BTDC was at 3000 RPM and above. This would lead me to have the timing at "38" for all spark table cell values 3000 RPM and above. Thoughts?

Still thinking about the dash tach issue, specifically, why is there no reading - there was before I went all exotic with sequential. The OEM wiring has not changed, using the same fuel injectors, and the ECU provides a ground to fire the fuel injectors. The OEM setup had two fuel injectors on the circuit and both fired for the same amount of time, one injector firing for the same amount of time should achieve the same result. I think I will review the initial engine tunes from early last year and compare notes, may find an indication of the why.

Question regarding MLV. Have clicked on the compare button and have not had any luck with it. Suggestion(s)?

Thanks again. Cheers
#67076
Question regarding MLV settings. VEA has a time component. Is the time entered the same as the time showing on the "x" axis of the graph - time in seconds such as say "41.635s"? The max value change for AFR and max percentage change for GEGO represent? Have tested all the other parameters and understand what I am looking at and should get. Like the way you can block an area with MLV settings. Went to the EFI Analytics web site and it has a couple of different settings.
#67077
Bit the bullet, again. Upgraded to TS MS Ultra, and to MLV HD. Had the licensed versions for TS MS and MLV MS. Don't know if I will use all the features, but will be testing to determine the extent of what I now have.
#67079
Rednaxs60 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:01 pm… I will get to a point where the engine tune is "good enough", and I will want to read and enjoy the bike. I will treat the engine tuning aspect as a mini work period. Ride and enjoy the bike, mini work period (review and adjust engine tune as necessary) - road trial(s), ride and enjoy the bike, repeat as necessary.
Excellent, and no tune is ever 'done'. I would comment that a crappy tune following no process, plan, or method, takes longer with more effort than a better tune following a path.

An example of this is progressive tuning "from the bottom-up", using diagnostic tuning. The point here is to tune a small and specific area as well as possible, before moving to another. Each area you tune creates a foundation for further tuning at an accelerated rate, using the data and trends from the previous areas. Here is one basic progressive method for tuning fuel and ignition timing, beginning with warm idle, cranking transition and off-idle accel areas:

Image

As the process proceeds, new areas may be predicted, and areas between the spots smoothed and blended increasing progress. After areas #4, the tune should be quite good, as each spot has been optimized (not just OK). In order to improve the tune (other than settings changes), simply means optimizing more spots between the previous spots.

Rednaxs60 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:01 pm… New, inexperienced "tuners" such as myself may get to your recommendations, but at a much slower pace. Don't want to grenade the engine prematurely. Your recommendation(s) will get a person to the end game sooner. Mr Honda had motorcycle and car engineers designing the Gold Wing, a lot of car influence into the design of the engine.
If you follow a process methodically, the progress is high, and the risk is lowest. As you can see above, tuning a lower-load and speed area will reveal trends for higher-load and speed areas, providing much better safety when you get there. 8-)


Rednaxs60 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:01 pmHonda designed the engine so that max timing advance of 38 degrees BTDC was at 3000 RPM and above. This would lead me to have the timing at "38" for all spark table cell values 3000 RPM and above. Thoughts?
Assuming no mods with impacts, and no change is fuel type, that would be a rough or approximate value to begin tuning towards for optimal timing. Again as above, if tuning the lower areas well first, you will see trends that verify 38° at 3000 and 90+ kPa as likely good, or likely not. Follow the signs (the data).

Rednaxs60 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:01 pmQuestion regarding MLV. Have clicked on the compare button and have not had any luck with it. Suggestion(s)?
If you mean MLV's File > Compare to, then that is an overlay function, placing one log file over another for comparison. Slick. Of course, logs taken a identically as possible reveal the most comparative data. Randomly zipping around is fine for general logs to examine for anomalies, but when tuning, deliberate and planned action is followed to gain specific data you need for diagnostic tuning.

To repeat; diagnostic tuning is simply repeating identical tests with one change, for data indicating which result is better. Proceed in the better direction until it trends worse, then go back to the peak values you found. 8-)

The other "compare" is in VEA, where floating the mouse pointer over an analyzed table cell will reveal info to compare original and suggested values, as below:

Image
#67080
@PSIG - good info as always. Starting to understand the way ahead. Upgraded TS and MLV, and have been testing it offline. Able to block an area, lowest matrix block area that I can use seems to be a 3 by 5 (3 for the RPM and 5 for MAP). Using the latest data log, have been doing some what ifs, and find the difference in the VE table cell values change a bit from 15.0 to 16.5 AFR, not a lot but noticeable, one or two points. Will use the block of VE table cell values from 56 to 90 KPA and RPM of 2000 to 4500 for this.

I will then do a further three four road trials and use the smaller VE block area (3 by 5 matrix) to tighten up the VE table cell values. This should allow me to discern a good AFR table cell value for the area in question. This part of the tuning process can be done after I get a good set of readings for different engine RPM/KPA/speed readings with the large block VE area - finer tuning and faster as well.

RPM is a key element in the trials, have to keep the rpm/gear ratio the same for a specific road trial.

So will be modifying my approach just a bit. If the road trial is for say 60 KPH at 3000 RPM. Will do at least three/four changing the block AFR table cell values to get a variety of readings, then tighten up on the VE table cell values to reflect a better (?) tune. May take me a bit longer to get where I want to be but makes sense to me, generally need more than one trial for specific parameters. As long as I have a "good" engine tune by June type timeframe, will be happy.

Since timing advance is to be in the 38 degree BTDC range for 3000 RPM and greater, can let this go until after I get through the VE/AFR settings. Have to rely a bit on what the Honda engineers did, they had better toys than I do. Having mentioned this, Honda's focus was probably on a well rounded approach, this is to say provide an engine tune that is not specific to a rider profile, but the best compromise for all riders. Modifying the timing advance will/may require a second look at the engine tune.

Checked out the time interval in MLV for VEA and need a time interval from min to max of at least 1200 seconds (20 minutes) to get rid of any error/caution messages.

Expect the engine tune will have to be revisited on a regular basis to start as new features are brought online.

Now I'm getting excited.
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