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#62360
LPG2CV wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:05 pm It looks like its running lean. CLT is 39* C does that sound correct?
I would say this is correct especially if it was the first or second start of the day, which I think it was from memory.

I went down to the wrecking yard this morning and managed to locate an IAT sensor. I installed it and now have an IAT temperature, unfortunately she's acting the same way, starting, running for 1 to 5 seconds and then stalling.

If I didn't have a fuel pressure gauge that reads a constant 60 psi I would swear that it was the fuel pump not keeping the pressure up. It also seems to start only after it has been primed. If I key on, wait a minute or so, then try and start her she doesn't fire.

I went through the settings menu by menu to see if I could work out the issue but I can't seem to get any improvements. I've changed the VE table in a number of directions and installed tunes that worked previously but can't get her back to her former glory. I feel like this is a simple issue but I've really run out of ideas....

Unfortunately the forum upload still seems to be out of action so I've add links to my tune and log. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as always. :)

Tune:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H9k8jc ... sp=sharing

Log
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hP7ZP1 ... sp=sharing
#62362
Those links are not working :)

I looked at the log and tune.

Enrichment disappears just before 15 seconds, So I suspect you need to add more duration for ASE at 40*C. Though I am not sure when the seconds start counting :)

The prime gives it the fuel kick to help it start. After that it gets it's enrichment from the cranking setting. Once started, and out of cranking mode, and into running mode, it takes it's enrichment setting from After Start Enrichment (ASE). ASE is in two parts, how much enrichment, and how long to apply it. Both of the tables allow you to set values based upon CLT temperature.

Edit
first links were not working :D

Warm Up Enrichment (WUE) is applied all the time, and as the engine warms, it tapers down to 100%

So in ASE, in the duration table, try increasing the 40C duration to say 30 seconds, and then see if the engines runs longer and warms sufficiently for WUE to take over.

So it looks like you are getting enough ASE, but not for long enough.
#62363
OK, I tried that and runs for as long as the enrichment lasts. :) :)

So that would suggest that I'm runner her too lean?
I suppose I need to up the numbers on the VE table to compensate?

I dialed down the ASE duration and the engine would stall in line with the number of enrichment seconds. I then upped the numbers in the VE table until she idles on her own. I managed to get her idling for 30 to 60 seconds so that is great. :D :D :D

I think with all my tinkering over the last couple of days the plugs will need a clean. I'll take them out tonight, give them a soak and put them back in the morning.

So it seem that ASE is another factor I need to consider. What is the best way to approach enrichment in relation to the VE table and AFR...?

Also, in the engine constants I have 14.7 for stoichiometric ratio. How does this relate to the AFR table which is currently set at 13...?

Thanks again for your advice LPG2CV I can now get a good night's rest (my neighbours too!!) before I get back out there in the morning. :D :D :D
#62364
The 14.7 tells speedy what is the “ideal” chemical ratio for the fuel used and is the basis for calculating some basic factors in the ecu. Gasoline is 14.7, don’t change it.

The AFR table tells speedy what raito to target at that time

Not near a computer now, but it sounds like you are very lean. Without the IAT that may have been masked by WUE and the 0*C rating.

When it’s running does it sound like all cylinders are firing? It’s possible your wiring developed a fault and some injectors aren’t firing. This would show as anlean condition. Are all injector leds still flashing?
#62367
Izzy46 wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:01 pmSo it seem that ASE is another factor I need to consider. What is the best way to approach enrichment in relation to the VE table and AFR...?
Everything in the tune relies on the base tables first. Then additions are made for other conditions, such as cold-start. This means you must find a way to get it started and warmed-up to operating temperature in order to tune those base tables. There are various methods to get this done, and one I use is to adjust R_f (Req_fuel value) as a global fuel "knob", only for this task. If it is drifting too lean to remain running, I increase R_f for enough fuel to keep running. As it warms, it may go rich, and so I again adjust R_f enough to continue warm-up, and so on. Once warmed, I can juggle R_f back to its original value, or in coordination with the VE Table. There are other methods.
PSIG wrote:Note that most functions are additive to the base tables. So, until your [idle area] VE and Spark Tables are fully tuned in a warm condition, the additives (e.g., priming, ASE, WUE, etc) are not predictable or effective under those different conditions. If you tune them to be effective before table tuning, then they will of course drift with the table changes. Tune again. And again. :roll:
PSIG wrote:After that setup review, get it started and warmed-up somehow to "normal" operating range and verify GammaE is close to 100, and if not, why not. Then tune to your target warm-idle rpm, adjusting fuel to typically what reads as minimum MAP. If your engine is stock, it will typically be around 30-ish kPa and stable.

Then you can zero your cranking and warmup settings to begin making incremental adjustments to warm start priming and cranking enrichment (starts quick & easy then dies immediately), then ASE (starts quick and runs well for seconds and dies) and then WUE (starts quick and runs well to your tuned warm idle). If you're not seeing the value of logical progressive steps, search for posts on how you can do this process, so it starts quick and clean to a good idle and warms-up before you begin tuning off-idle. There are other methods.

For Lambda to read for helpful data while starting, check your AFR controller power does not skip when you go from Run to Start. If it does, jump-wire power to it so it warms in Run and stays warm during the start cycle without resetting. Off-topic, but I use a hot (ready) sensor for start/warm-up (tuning only), and have never killed a sensor, nor have evidence that it significantly impacts sensor life in this limited use.
#62370
OK, I tried that and runs for as long as the enrichment lasts. :) :)

So that would suggest that I'm runner her too lean?
I suppose I need to up the numbers on the VE table to compensate?
So, I'm pretty much going to para phrase PSIG :)

Ultimately, when the engine is warmed up, and no enrichment is needed, then WUE will be at 100% and the VE where RPM and MAP at idle cross in the VE table, will be correct to maintain that idle (assuming spark advance is adequate). So this is the ultimate goal for idle.

To get to idle from cold, enrichment needs to be added. This is what @psig is saying. We need away to keep the engine running long enough to determine what the VE should be under warmed up conditions. So, bizarrely, where we end up, is really where we need to start from. :)

There are 4 stages of starting and keeping the engine running.

Injector Prime.

Cranking Enrichment

ASE

WUE

You have achived IP and CE because it is failing at ASE :) (doesn't mean these stages can't be improved)

The decision now, is it failing at ASE or WUE!

ASE is a transition setting to get to WUE. So you need to determine, if ASE duration, or WUE needs to be increased :)

Unfortunately, It doesn't stop there :lol: CE and ASE needs to be tuned (eventually) for a hot engine as well. :)

Hopefully, this is useful :)
#62457
So I've been at it over the last few days without much success.

On Saturday I managed to get her warmed up and running for as long as needed. Even though I could get her running for over 60 seconds she would always stall, I never once turned her off at the key.

On Sunday I couldn't replicate Saturday's success. I noticed that the IAT would always sit at 21*C so I did some Google to get the settings right and discovered I'd been given a CLT rather than an IAT. :roll: I went back to the wrecker and scouted around for an hour or so until I found a Honda IAT sensor. I've since install the new IAT and checked the temperature on TunerStudio against a lazer temperature gauge. It seems to be spot on.

Since installing the IAT I've tried to get her to run for longer than 10 seconds. Regardless of the settings I use; increasing ASE enrichment amount and duration or modifying the VE table I get the same outcome. The engine starts perfectly runs for 3 to 10 seconds and then dies. When I have the VE table low it runs smoothly but seems to die after 3 seconds. When I have the VE table set to rich it will run for longer but run rougher and put out a lot more smoke. Sometimes I'll get a slow smoky sneeze coming from the throttle body when she stalls, this happens 1 out 10 stalls.

Regardless of the ASE or VE settings the AFR dial will always start at 13 idle between 13 or 15 and then move into the red showing 17 and above. After it moves into the red it will die. I'm surprised that none of the settings change the AFR reading. I'm wondering if the WBO2 is installed correctly. I'm currently using a 14point7 and installed it using the standard 14point7 settings in TS.

For what it's worth I've added the rich tune and its log. This tune is based off of the "successful" tune from Saturday.

If I didn't have a fuel pressure gauge connected I would swear it was a fuel pump issue but the pressure remains strong. At this point I'm struggle to come up with potential theories or ideas......
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#62459
So I went back out and got rid of all the ASE above 40*C and now she goes well!! I'm not really sure why but I'll take it for now :D

I can get her idling really nicely but occasionally she will just drop down on the VE table. Sometimes she'll catch herself and do a big circle on the VE table then comeback to idle (I hope you know what I mean :) ). Other times she will just drop out.

The battery is now flat but at least I've got something to work with :D :D :D
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