Any questions you have before you begin buying, building and installing.
#63314
I just did an EEPROM Clear, then uploaded the latest firmware.

From memory I built my original by loading Apollard's tune from 2019 (I think) and then modifying the values until they worked for my engine. Should I have loaded a newer base tune from v0.4 and then started from there or was it OK to go with Apollard's tune....?

I know TS like the back of my hand so no problem to start from a completely different base tune.
#63341
Well miracles do happen!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: 8-) 8-) 8-)

I did as you suggested, EEPROM clear, firmware update, made a direct input for the throttle controller and updated the controller directly through the USB. She now idles and runs without any dropouts.

When I updated I got the following messages.
Screen Shot 2023-06-01 at 8.10.54 AM.png
Screen Shot 2023-06-01 at 8.10.54 AM.png (33.26 KiB) Viewed 3000 times
Screen Shot 2023-06-01 at 8.10.09 AM.png
Screen Shot 2023-06-01 at 8.10.09 AM.png (53.53 KiB) Viewed 3000 times
I'm hoping these aren't an issue...?
#63342
There is however one more minor issue to overcome. Now that I've updated the software she runs incredibly lean in the higher rev ranges, to the point of backfiring.
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 919 times
As I mentioned earlier I changed the distributor only two days ago. When I dropped the new distributor in I was unable to get the rotor to line up exactly with it's previous position. I must have sat there for over an hour and dropped the distributor down at least 50 times but I could get it exactly on point. The rotor would either go just beyond the point or just before the point, never sitting right on the damn point!

After consulting the internet I was led to believe that it was OK to be 'one tooth off' as I could then recalibrate with a timing light and everything would be equivalent to the previous position. In previous tunes the trigger angle at TDC was -27 in this tune it is -5 at TDC.

Could this be somehow causing the extreme leanness at higher rpm...?
#63344
No, the distributor isn't causing the lean condition. As long as it's checked to be correct, it should be fine. Being a tooth off on some distributors can cause phasing issues, but not with the delco voyager.

The firmware and tune versions must match. My advice is to erase eeprom, install 202207.1 firmware, reload your last 202207 tune. Then start from there. Given the communication / corruption issues you had, you are likely going to need to tune some areas.
#63387
So I've got the firmwares matched up and I've been using the USB cable for all communication. I happy to see that the weird intermittent issue that has plagued me for the last few months is completely gone.

Unfortunately I've picked up a backfiring issue which haven't been able to solve yet. Here is what it sounds like:
https://youtube.com/shorts/-xI1qEmN9c8?feature=share

The backfire started happening right after I updated the firmware and dropped in a new distributor. I think it's much more likely to be related to the distributor. The backfire occurs when the engine is rich and when it is lean.

Lean backfiring log:
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 954 times
Rich backfiring log:
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As I mentioned earlier I was unable to get the distributor in exactly the same place as before. I've include before and after photos.

Old distributor:
IMG_20230530_162905_781.jpg
IMG_20230530_162905_781.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 2934 times
New distributor:
IMG_20230530_180914_120.jpg
IMG_20230530_180914_120.jpg (2.27 MiB) Viewed 2934 times
As you can see the new distributor is retarded slightly. To compensate I twisted the body of the distributor a few degrees until it seemed to be inline with the previous setup. Once I got the cap on I locked the timing and adjusted the advance until the white line on the balancer lined up again. I was surprised that the timing went from -27 to -3, given that I'd lined the cap up as closely as possible.

In order to solve this issue I've checked that the firing order is correct. I've also checked the connections of all the plugs, distributor and coil. I've also removed all of the engine protection settings.

Here is the current tune I'm using.
(88.31 KiB) Downloaded 892 times
I'm wondering what I've done to cause this new issue.... :? :? :?
#63395
So I went back out to the dock with my extra long screwdriver and reset the distributor back to its previous position. I reset the timing to -37 and now she's running perfectly!!! :D :D :D

I still don't understand why readjusting the distributor would have any impact on the timing when I'm reseting back to TDC each time. I'm going to take the W for now and move on. :lol: :lol: 8-)

My last mission is to stabilize the idle at startup and bridge the cap between AFR at startup and AFR after a full run.

I noticed that after running the boat for a while with some aggressive throttle input I get the following at idle.
RPM = about 750
AFR = 10 - 11
CLT = 72
(643.84 KiB) Downloaded 945 times
Is the low AFR attributable to wall wetting coming off higher RPM...? And is this solvable by lowering the values on the VE table that occur when the throttle is suddenly closed?

At startup I get:

RPM = Oscilates between 530 and 730 for the first 10 seconds, settles at 650 and then slowly climbs to 720 after 80 seconds
AFR = 16 then slowly drifts down to 14 after 80 seconds or so
CLT = 68
(437.98 KiB) Downloaded 933 times
Is this attributable to having no ASE? Would having ASE for 10 seconds at startup help to reduce the oscillation in RPM and improve AFR? Is the 650 rpm between 10 and 80 seconds just something I have to live with? I feel that I can't add much warmup enrichment because 68 is pretty much operating temp. If I add more to the VE or increase idle pulse width I'll be even richer and have and even higher idle after heavier throttle use.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the setup. For the sake of my marriage and my sanity adjusting the startup is going to be my last modification for the season. :) Once again, thank you so much to everyone that got me this far!! Hopefully I can enjoy this baby for a few weeks and then pass it on to someone else who will enjoy this boat as much as I do.

Once I'm done I'll post up all my CAD files, tune files and shopping lists for anyone else crazy enough to want to repeat my process. :? :lol: 8-)
Attachments
(88.29 KiB) Downloaded 867 times
#63396
Adding some ASE helps my idle, but I wou,d start at 4-5seconds.

Yes, reducing ve in the table areas where it drops with hard decel will help the afr. Don't go too far or you'll destabilize idle. Nothing wrong with a 12 afr if the engine likes it.
#63399
Agreed, a wet manifold has fuel in the runners, always. On decel, the high vacuum (low MAP) boils the fuel off the walls, enriching whatever air is there. Solutions are varied, but include leaner decel area fueling of course. A problem is decel from 50%, 80% or 100% throttle reacts differently, so a compromise balance is tuned. Alternatively on road cars with long decel events, decel fuel cut can be used to allow the excess fuel to purge, and restart the engine at 2x to 3x idle rpm generally works well. You likely do not have that option, or it will be limited; but mentioning it as a perspective of decel tuning. You may want to add some Idle Timing Control or a timing trough to your Spark table to help in decel idle recovery.

Izzy46 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:08 am I still don't understand why readjusting the distributor would have any impact on the timing when I'm reseting back to TDC each time. I'm going to take the W for now and move on. :lol: :lol: 8-)
It's not the cap, but the position of the pickup (sensor) that is the focus. You got there, and yes, move on. :lol:

Izzy46 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:08 am At startup I get:
RPM = Oscilates between 530 and 730 for the first 10 seconds, settles at 650 and then slowly climbs to 720 after 80 seconds
AFR = 16 then slowly drifts down to 14 after 80 seconds or so
CLT = 68

Is this attributable to having no ASE? Would having ASE for 10 seconds at startup help to reduce the oscillation in RPM and improve AFR? Is the 650 rpm between 10 and 80 seconds just something I have to live with? I feel that I can't add much warmup enrichment because 68 is pretty much operating temp. If I add more to the VE or increase idle pulse width I'll be even richer and have and even higher idle after heavier throttle use.
Yes, you are confusing operating settings with startup settings. ASE is only short-term to stabilize Lambda, so you don't get lean surging (the effect you're seeing). The issue is that the tune is properly set for warm parts that vaporize fuel near 100%. Only vaporized fuel can burn. When cold, a smaller percentage of fuel vaporizes, and the rest can't burn. We see enleanment in the logs. To correct this, we add fuel, to re-gain that good idle Lambda.

The VE Table should be correct for normal warm operation, and left there. If the logs or data show lean on cold start, then add only the fuel for the time and conditions to correct those 'abnormal' low-vaporization conditions. Remember, tune warm restart first as your baseline (priming, ASE, warmup), which should be minimal, nearly zero, and zero added fuel.

For cold start tuning, I allow the O2 to warm and begin stable reading, then log a normal start. I do not cold-start with a hot sensor except for tuning that area. Following the log indications (which will read lean until it fires), I add cranking fuel to get quick firing and rapid swing to peak-torque Lambda (found in warm idle tuning).
Yours is looking fairly good with only 1s of cranking at that temperature.

Follow warmup progress, adjusting WUE cells along the way to full-warm. Extend the WUE curve trends for colder and warmer conditions. This should all be fairly clear in your cold start logs. Apply some predictive values from the log indications, and do it again when cold again, to find any bumps or wiggles in the series of corrections.

ASE is a startup transition "gap-filler" when intake parts and chambers are dead-cold and fuel does not want to vaporize well. If it starts quick and has a reasonable WUE, but goes lean between the two for some seconds, then add ASE to maintain AFR and stable run with as much fuel and as long as indicated to transition that startup-to-WUE gap when parts are cold.

Izzy46 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:08 am Once I'm done I'll post up all my CAD files, tune files and shopping lists for anyone else crazy enough to want to repeat my process. :? :lol: 8-)
We have a lot of crazy people here, and I'm sure some that will appreciate your efforts. 8-)
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