Anything not specifically related to the Speeduino hardware. Eg sensors, bluetooth, displays etc
By ckea827
#2536
Hi,

I am new to speeduino and this forum. Are there any plans to add an air pressure sensor to the board? Wouldn't it be good to know this to calc the amount of fuel to be injected? If I use an O2 sensor it doesn't matter I think, but without?

Would be great if we could have a discussion about this.

Greets, Christian
By NickZ
#2537
Do you mean a map sensor? Map sensor mesures vacuum and boost pressure.
All versions have a map sensor input, most have a map sensor onboard.
My version used external, GM map sensor.
By ckea827
#2538
OK,

I try to explain what I am thinking about. To be able to calculate the fuel amount, we have to know the weight of the amount of air our engine consumes. For example if you are on see-level you are around 1013hPa (1,27kg/m³ air). If you are 100 meters above there are only 1000hPa (1,25kg/m³ air). The map-sensor tells us only how much air (volume) (about 0.5L for 2LEngine at full throttle) the engine loads. But we do not know anything about the weight of it?

Sorry - I am confused a bit myself - so correct me if am wrong.

Thanks
By ckea827
#2540
Mhhh...

I am not sure but I think the MAP sensor should do it. The MAP-Value depends also on the outside air pressure. But to be able to calculate the weight we need to know the intake air temperature - which is read in the firmware. But I do not see any correction to the pulse-width for the injection. But I think this is an other question.

So please correct me if I am wrong - at the moment I am trying to understand the system (hard-/software).

Greets, Christian
User avatar
By KaxLon
#2542
I think you mean a barometer to calculate the diff from sea level.
The MAP already on the board is enough to measure pressure. We could use the intake air temperature to calibrate for air weight. Easy code to add.
User avatar
By cx500tc
#2550
Let's clarify things a little bit.

There are two basic ways to measure intake manifold air pressure:
- 1: intake manifold air pressure relative to the air pressure at mean sea level. This is usually referred to as "relative" pressure. Since the pressure indicated is relative to sea level pressure, vacuum is indicated with negative values.
- 2: intake manifold air pressure relative to an absolute vacuum. This is usually referred to as "absolute" pressure. Since the pressure is indicated relative to an absolute vacuum, there can only be positive values.

The 2nd way of measuring air pressure is easier on computers because the value starts at 0 and increases as the pressure increases: there's no having to deal with negative numbers and the effects that can have on a computer.

Now... MAP means "Manifold Absolute Pressure". See where we're going here? A MAP sensor outputs a voltage that relates to the ABSOLUTE air pressure in the intake manifold. Theoretically, a "perfect" MAP sensor would output 0v if exposed to an absolute vacuum- something totally unobtainable even in the vacuum of outer space. And it will output increasing voltage as the pressure increases. When the pressure is approximately 101 kilopascals, that's about the same as the ambient air pressure at mean sea level: 0 BAR air pressure, 0 millibar, and so on. Atmospheric disturbances are often measured in millibar because they aren't strong enough to be measured in other units.

Now let's say you're using a "relative" pressure sensor connected to the engine and the manifold is pressurized from a turbo then you shut the throttle. You have a positive number from the previous "boosted" situation, and when the throttle is closed you have to work with a negative number. What happens when you subtract a negative? ... you add the values. See the problem? The program has to take extra steps to make sure the calculation is handled correctly- not efficient and slows the processor down.

So, MAP sensor it is!

Now, off somewhere else for a moment.
Proper air density calculations... it is really air density we need to know to accurately calculate how much fuel to inject, along with the fuel density and such. Calculating air density in the intake manifold requires: manifold air pressure, manifold air temperature, ambient air pressure (barometric), ambient air temperature, ambient air humidity... lots of variables, right? In general, though, knowing manifold air pressure and air temperature can get things close enough to work well since knowing the air temperature and the pressure after it entered the manifold, and that barometric and humidity don't generally change enough to cause any big problem, somewhat basic math works.

In some cases, compensating for barometric pressure, humidity and ambient temp can get more accuracy, but with an suitable tune and O2 / Lambda feedback, those can be somewhat accounted for after the fact, and in kind engine temperature is a factor that requires compensation because that adds heat to the intake air once its entered the manifold and it's a well-known fact that cold engines require more fuel.

To get even more specific, we should also know the fuel pressure and the fuel's specific heat of evaporation too.

I'm done. :)
Last edited by cx500tc on Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By noisymime
#2556
KaxLon wrote:I think you mean a barometer to calculate the diff from sea level.
The MAP already on the board is enough to measure pressure. We could use the intake air temperature to calibrate for air weight. Easy code to add.
This is already in. There is an inlet air temperature correction curve that changes the fuelling based on the air temperature. The default curve is based on a reasonable approximation from the ideal gas law, but it can be varied if need be.
By ckea827
#2557
@cx500tc
thats it ;-)

@noisymime
Where in the code I can find this "temperature correction curve" ... I did not find it in the act release?

Greets, Christian
By noisymime
#2564
ckea827 wrote:@noisymime
Where in the code I can find this "temperature correction curve" ... I did not find it in the act release?
OK, I have no idea what has happened here, but for some reason this had been removed from the corrections code :?

I've re-added it back in now (on github). The majority of the code is in the corrections.ino file, though there is some of the setup stuff in speeduino.ino
By ckea827
#2573
:D Very cool - I will checkout the repos this week. Really appreciate your work ... now I need one of the boards. In the shop it is not available anymore.

Greets, Christian

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