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#9318
I was working on the "Little successes bread enthusiasm" philosophy, ie the sooner the motor starts the more enthusiasm to go further, perfect or not. If a motor starts with 2 only wires, more people are going to think they are capable of doing it.

I find that young people think that nothing will work without all the extras connected, but I've seen an engine do a dyno pull with controlled pouring of Nitro down the throat of a open carb to produce a 50% power increase. I've worked on Methanol engines and they run with just a mechanical pump and a PIL, and we won races. I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.

I read one post already where someone was asking for a downloadable tune file, and I can see TunerStudio getting more complicated with each update - one wrong step in TS and you fry your ignitor -, so I was thinking small simple steps is better than overload.

I think if someone has already bought Speeduino and it wasn't running right, they would be more inclined to ask for help and work it out rather than giving up and bagging the product.
#9330
I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.
They were Alpha-n (RPM/TPS), I have worked on a few... and would not need a temp sensor as they are always "cold" (I can hold my hand to the head of my ski after a prolonged run at WOT).
#9336
RichCreations wrote:
I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.
They were Alpha-n (RPM/TPS), I have worked on a few... and would not need a temp sensor as they are always "cold" (I can hold my hand to the head of my ski after a prolonged run at WOT).
I'd still recommend one since engine temperature is obviously based on coolant flow, and that is controlled by jet pump speed. Ski's engines can get pretty hot if you're lurking around the "no-wake" zone on a lake or marina. Also, some have thermostats- my '94 Tigershark did. Wish I still had that ride... sadly a petal broke off the reed valve and I lost my job just after that so had to get rid of it. :(
#9339
cx500tc wrote:
RichCreations wrote:
I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.
They were Alpha-n (RPM/TPS), I have worked on a few... and would not need a temp sensor as they are always "cold" (I can hold my hand to the head of my ski after a prolonged run at WOT).
I'd still recommend one since engine temperature is obviously based on coolant flow, and that is controlled by jet pump speed. Ski's engines can get pretty hot if you're lurking around the "no-wake" zone on a lake or marina. Also, some have thermostats- my '94 Tigershark did. Wish I still had that ride... sadly a petal broke off the reed valve and I lost my job just after that so had to get rid of it. :(
Mine seems to flow enough at low rpm/idle to never really get above "lukewarm", no thermostat, ancient JS440 (with many mods)
#9535
Old Grey wrote:I was working on the "Little successes bread enthusiasm" philosophy, ie the sooner the motor starts the more enthusiasm to go further, perfect or not. If a motor starts with 2 only wires, more people are going to think they are capable of doing it.
I can understand your thinking, but in electronics and EFI specifically, users are looking not for "something that runs on 2 wires", but an improvement over a simpler and less expensive alternative, such as their stock EFI, or a carburetor. Something that works (relatively) crappy will earn that reputation. The typical amateur label given as Arduino junk. I don't want to see that for Speeduino, as it isn't.
Old Grey wrote:I find that young people think that nothing will work without all the extras connected,
I haven't, but if they do then they are not put-off by it. ;) Certainly adequately or even over-sensored is less risky for successful results than too minimal. The best compromise would be the correct sensors for the application. No more and no less. Most are served best with the typical set recommended. I deal with a lot of older hot-rodders, and they generally are not intimidated by 6 or 10 more wires. They just want to know what to do with them without taking a quantum physics class, and that it will work well when they are done, making it worth the time and effort. Most people I talk to are not interested in an engine that starts with 2 wires, but one that is equal to or better than their carb or OEM EFI system in some way, and will not have to be pulled back out after days or weeks of frustration to have 6 wires added to do it. "Minimal" sounds a bit deceptive to me, and won't generally give the results they are hoping and paying for, ending with Speeduino = junk. Certainly let them know that if they learn more, they could possibly use fewer sensors, but I wouldn't tell them to start there. They want to do the work necessary and then go have fun. That's just my experience, and your crowd may think differently, though I honestly doubt it.
Old Grey wrote:... but I've seen an engine do a dyno pull with controlled pouring of Nitro down the throat of a open carb to produce a 50% power increase. I've worked on Methanol engines and they run with just a mechanical pump and a PIL, and we won races. I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.
Actually, those last two are AN systems, and the first uses a very complicated and intelligent brain. No system that runs better than bad is rpm only. AN is pretty crappy, as it has no way to know load. If you've run AN systems then you already know this. You also know it is in no way for beginners to try, as they actually need to know more to make it work half-assed. Like you, I have also run AN MFI on aerobatic aircraft to AA Altered blown alcohol dragsters. The only reason anybody won races, was because 1) we worked through the night every race to make our crappy AN system a hair better than their crappy AN system, and 2) it was the only thing available that would dump gallons of alcohol into the blower top plate. No choice, and we only dreamed of something better. I wouldn't wish that on most people and certainly not beginners.

I would suggest AN for very few systems only if they actually require it as the best option. I am surprised you would suggest it for beginners, let alone rpm-only, which is effectively guaranteed failure or severe frustration and disappointment. Speeduino does not have to do a lot, but it must do what it does well, or it will fail in the automotive hobby-level market. Many have been there before, and traveled the same path, for a short distance. The way to make it easy is not to impress and confuse them with what all it can do, but how that person needs to set up their system.
Old Grey wrote:I read one post already where someone was asking for a downloadable tune file, and I can see TunerStudio getting more complicated with each update - one wrong step in TS and you fry your ignitor -, so I was thinking small simple steps is better than overload.
Exactly. Ignore those other 187 settings for ways you're not doing it, and just do THIS. Then THAT. Not something else. Then have fun. Custom EFI is an elephant, and beginners have a small spoon to eat it with. Keep it super simple and specific steps, to reach the big goal. Don't ease them into the warm quicksand, leaving them no choice but to struggle out. ;) Show them the easy path around it. "Walk this way." Keep an important point in-mind, that in most cases the user does not need to know how the Magic Box works, just how to wire it up and adjust it. They will be energized to learn that part and other things it can do after it runs great.

Don't talk (yet) about settings or options or sensors they don't use or need. You'll kill them with info overload. Just the ones they do for their application. One example could be to start with a block diagram of INPUT, Speeduino, OUTPUT, etc. "This is how it works." Then a tree to lead them to the info they need next, such as "Speeduino works like this. Now, go to the INPUTS section to find your specific type of sensors. If you do not know what which type you have, or which you prefer to use, go HERE." For those looking to consider all types for a scratch-built system, lead them to your diagram, showing all the options and types of I/O it can use. That's just one idea for how to do it. Simple concepts, not simple (minimum) wires. Do your thing.
Old Grey wrote:I think if someone has already bought Speeduino and it wasn't running right, they would be more inclined to ask for help and work it out rather than giving up and bagging the product.
Indeed, if they have already invested in one. They won't invest until they think they can do it. They won't think they can do it until they feel they have a grasp of the basic functional concepts, then a vision of the tasks, and can then envision completion and a successfully performing engine, as good or better than the carb or OEM system in it now. It took other designs years to get that part right. Or, sort-of right. :roll: They were not open-source, and had money to pay for people to do this stuff, and to answer endless questions. Speeduino does not. My goal for Speeduino is seeing successful systems with happy users. More smiles, less cussing. Speeduino does not have to do much, but it must do it well, and you can lead beginners to that. Rock on!
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David
#9561
PSIG wrote:
Old Grey wrote:... but I've seen an engine do a dyno pull with controlled pouring of Nitro down the throat of a open carb to produce a 50% power increase. I've worked on Methanol engines and they run with just a mechanical pump and a PIL, and we won races. I think I remember the first Jetski EFI were rpm based only, so that's a scenario that works.
Actually, those last two are AN systems, and the first uses a very complicated and intelligent brain.
I didn't see anything intelligent in Top Fuel and Top Fuel Harley when I worked on the stuff, and in fact the rules don't allow it. It's just a bank of timers and balanced systems that have to coincide with the 660 odd ignition firings from start line to finish.
PSIG wrote:
Old Grey wrote:I was working on the "Little successes bread enthusiasm" philosophy, ie the sooner the motor starts the more enthusiasm to go further, perfect or not. If a motor starts with 2 only wires, more people are going to think they are capable of doing it.
I can understand your thinking, but in electronics and EFI specifically, users are looking not for "something that runs on 2 wires".
That's it, I don't people adopting Speeduino are into electronics, they only know a bit of basic automotive wiring because they are more into mechanical cars. Even I'm not that interested in electronics, and would have preferred a Speeduino with full instructions, like my DSO138 kit, and been up and running straight away, but I have a doggy arm due to straightening Top Fuel valves with a hammer :D Did I mention the Top Fuel guys over here are morons.
#9688
Old Grey wrote:
That's it, I don't people adopting Speeduino are into electronics, they only know a bit of basic automotive wiring because they are more into mechanical cars. Even I'm not that interested in electronics, and would have preferred a Speeduino with full instructions,.
Agreed. I am currently working on something along those lines for a v0.3.2 for a 0bd1/ obd2 Honda application . I just hope that more people document their speeduino progress and make it available to others
#9689
Old Grey wrote:
PSIG wrote:Actually, those last two are AN systems, and the first uses a very complicated and intelligent brain.
I didn't see anything intelligent in Top Fuel and Top Fuel Harley when I worked on the stuff ...
Ah, I thought you were saying a person was pouring it in a carb. That person would have been the brain controlling it.
PSIG wrote:I can understand your thinking, but in electronics and EFI specifically, users are looking not for "something that runs on 2 wires".
Old Grey wrote:That's it, I don't people adopting Speeduino are into electronics, they only know a bit of basic automotive wiring because they are more into mechanical cars.
Exactly my point. Where are we missing here? My primary point was to prevent overload by keeping learning in simple steps, teaching them only what they need to know at any one point. Giving them directions based on their project, not everyone's projects. Not an overview with 101 options and explanations. That's all. Your diagram is awesome—but it's Step 2.
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David
#9699
Cool, I was just thinking of the potentially bigger market of people who don't know electronics.

I was surprised at work with the number of old guys coming in with old Holley EFI even thesedays, simply because it was simple to setup because it was a full kit with instructions, and they are very cheap nowadays.

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Yes, that guy was pouring it down the carb throat. He was on the dyno and he had some Nitro laying around so he gave it a shot, and it did work with such a crude delivery.
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