Help with building your Speeduino, installing it, getting it to run etc.
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By PSIG
#59694
Sounds like a good setup for most purposes. If using BC, you can find the WG response with no BC action, as is the initial tuning setting. When building a table, we often use a check valve (2-port), pull the springs, or wire the gate open (1-port) in order to tune the NA section of the tables well. This is not only safer initially, but also allows tuning in areas the turbo would jump past in normal accel, but could enter in other situations. Most importantly, it provides a view of trends of what the engine likes and needs with greater load and rpm. This allows much better prediction for extended areas not yet tuned.

Once that is covered, the turbo is let run on just WG to find where it goes, often using lighter WG springs. Every engine, fuel and setup will be different, so take your time and explore carefully. If using a det-limited fuel, this allow you to tickle the dragon's tail with low danger and regular reading of data and signs, such as spark plug reading (read-up!). Once it's happy to the boost limit of the WG, you will be able to see where in the tables it needs different WG action to shape the boost curve, boost recovery, etc. That's when you begin adjusting spring rates and using active BC to form the engine response the way you want or need to. "Fill the holes" using a clear picture of what it needs from all the data you have gathered. You should be having lots of fun along the way. 8-)
By kettlekev
#59697
Sounds like a good setup for most purposes. If using BC, you can find the WG response with no BC action, as is the initial tuning setting.
I have the HP and torque curves from the OEM setup, so that is a good start. Is there a way I can use that to do an initial table setup? How do I know what the max target Kpa is I can set?
When building a table, we often use a check valve (2-port), pull the springs, or wire the gate open (1-port) in order to tune the NA section of the tables well
So lock the gate wide open somehow? How does this help me tune the table? Sorry for the dumb questions.
Once it's happy to the boost limit of the WG, you will be able to see where in the tables it needs different WG action to shape the boost curve, boost recovery, etc
Are there any more tuning links I can read anywhere, Don't want to waste your time as I know you must have explained this before but I'm still not sure what you are suggesting I need to do......I've looked at a few U Tube videos but can only find open loop setups.

I have access to a dyno and last questions, is a boost gauge a useful tool here? I guess it helps keep a watch on the boost control valve operation?

Is the dyno the only real way I can find out how far I can push the boost pressure?
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By PSIG
#59705
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:57 amI have the HP and torque curves from the OEM setup, so that is a good start. Is there a way I can use that to do an initial table setup? How do I know what the max target Kpa is I can set?
You can use the stock tables for reference, to be sure you're not running off the rails :lol: but you will see where it's going as you tune-up to it. That's the point of working the tune up, so you can see where it's going and what you want or need to change. Hands-on beats chatting every time.
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:57 amSo lock the gate wide open somehow? How does this help me tune the table? Sorry for the dumb questions.
Yes, as it allows you to find the tune at lower loads, and in more areas than if boost took it into orbit at every opportunity. What this does for tuning is to show you trends. What would your timing be at 150kPa? Well, after tuning all over NA, you'll see the fuel and timing effects from 50 to 100kPa, and that is a clue for how it will respond going from 100 to 150kPa. Trends make it all so much quicker and safer at the same time. Questions are not dumb, you just need some concepts to run with. Tuning is not about knowledge as much as grasping concepts. You get the knowledge when you do it for yourself, and so much more makes sense. The knowledge is different on every project, but the concepts remain similar on any.
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:57 amAre there any more tuning links I can read anywhere, Don't want to waste your time as I know you must have explained this before but I'm still not sure what you are suggesting I need to do......I've looked at a few U Tube videos but can only find open loop setups.
Unfortunately, most references on EFI run past the basics of tuning, and into the what-to-click stage, assuming you already know the concepts. Tuning is tuning, whether a carbureted weed trimmer or a blown nitro land-speed car. So, it may sound odd that some of the old carb books and distributor tuning references are valuable for their concepts of why you do something, not the how. Look for stuff that discusses why for concepts and tuning theory. There are many sites and channels with this info, from Andy Wyatt's Adaptronic videos, to Andy Whittle's data analysis videos, to EFI101, and many others. Each has pieces of the puzzle, and as you apply them, understanding follows quickly.
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:57 amI have access to a dyno and last questions, is a boost gauge a useful tool here? I guess it helps keep a watch on the boost control valve operation?
A boost gauge can help to catch over-shoots while driving/sweeping, but otherwise the TS MAP gauge does the job, and is what the ECM sees. Set-up a TS dash with gauges sized and positioned by importance so you can "see" the critical data you need. Dashes can change with different tuning sessions and goals. [EDIT] BTW, TS is (mostly) for monitoring and changing settings. MegaLogViewer is where you view and analyze the data-logs for what happened, why, and what to do about it next. ;)
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:57 amIs the dyno the only real way I can find out how far I can push the boost pressure?
No, it's one way. In-fact, dyno results are fine for basic tuning under stable conditions, making the process quicker. Sweeps and pulls can be overlaid to find the points to enter into your tables, e.g., sweeps with increasing load or speed, then look at the fuel or timing vs torque for peak results along the curves. Pick the best points and connect the dots. Compare the results for prediction in other areas, and it gets quicker.

However, this only gets you to the point is has best fuel and timing under those conditions. What if you take it out to the flats for a 1-mile time run? Heat accumulation and other effects can destroy the engine without further adjustment. So a dyno is great to find what the engine generally wants with this fuel (Lambda, timing, etc) and to set initial dial-in as a baseline, but real-world operating conditions will further refine the tune for actual use. Some do all their tuning on the track or (safe) street for this advantage, so it includes stuff like AE and how weight, traction, aerodynamics, gearing and cooling affects it. If you can do that safely, it takes longer (with all the variables you gather) but it's an option to consider for all or part of it, and for some projects a requirement. Go soak-up some concepts and theory. 8-)
By kettlekev
#59706
Thanks PSIG. Lots to learn.

The stock bike came with a turbo from OEM all be it a mechanical waste gate control, so I have to assume the VE and spark tables in its ECU are a reasonable start point.

My primary challenge is deploying boost control and knowing where to start setting the table up. Additional tuning will follow.

Can I also assume that if my waste gate release pressure is 20Psi max that a boost cut off of 40 psi is safe or that too little or too much?
User avatar
By PSIG
#59708
kettlekev wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pmMy primary challenge is deploying boost control and knowing where to start setting the table up. Additional tuning will follow.

Can I also assume that if my waste gate release pressure is 20Psi max that a boost cut off of 40 psi is safe or that too little or too much?
With the wastegate defeated, there is no boost table set-up … yet. Additional tuning comes before. You will know how to set-up the table when you get to that point. I set boost-cut for any boost above the point I've tuned-to. It's not ready for any boost at first, so boost cut just above NA initially (in-case there is boost creep). Boost cut is increased as the tune is ready for it, so it never goes where it's not ready.

You'll find not many know how to tune anything but WOT, so you'll see references to "start, idle, go like hell and hope it's OK". There is never reason to endanger your ride more than necessary. Don't jump to the end, and enjoy the ride getting there. ;)

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