Help with building your Speeduino, installing it, getting it to run etc.
User avatar
By gpineau
#31697
Wanted to start a topic for reference material, experience, and case histories of using 3D printer to fab parts for using in Speeduino implementation.

I will start the topic off with the injector insert that I use to hold the injector in the throat of my throttle body.
I am using nylon from eSun part number EPA175N1. It is difficult to work with and the recommended temperature setting for printing are not working well for me. I find that I must crank my nozzle temperature up to 260 and bed temperature to 55-60.

I changed the bed to a glass plate. I use Elmers washable school glue to prime the surface of the glass before printing and wash it off after printing.

It is much easier to remove the part if the bed is warm.

Often the first layer that is printed on the glass will come loose from the part if the bed is not warm.

A question was raised on another thread of "what it the glass transition temperature" At the time I did not understand the question but now I know that it means the temperature (from Wiki)
"The glass–liquid transition, or glass transition, is the gradual and reversible transition in amorphous materials, from a hard and relatively brittle "glassy" state into a viscous or rubbery state as the temperature is increased.

The glass-transition temperature Tg of a material characterizes the range of temperatures over which this glass transition occurs. It is always lower than the melting temperature, Tm, of the crystalline state of the material, if one exists. "

So according to what I can find my part are going to get soggy and rubbery in the application I am using them. So I need to rethink my material that I will use for this project.

I sent a question to the manufacturer of the filament but I dont think I am going to like the answer.

http://www.esun3d.net/products/209.html
By LPG2CV
#31701
I suspect you may experience a lot of grief with this. I did a small search and although sounding negative, does appear to make sense.

https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/com ... filaments/

Basically, they are suggesting specialist equipment is required.

You may be better off using perhaps ABS to prototype and then outsourcing to have your items made from a reliable filament. Also consider leaving room for O rings to seal properly.

Another thought is to buy some injector bungs and glue them in place in your carbs as some people do to fix them to manifolds.

Just my 2 cylinders worth. :)
User avatar
By gpineau
#31703
I've got the answer and I posted it on another thread. Bears repeating here.

This isn't funny but...not wanting to overlook anything and since I was forewarned I went out the the garage with one of my parts and did a thermal test. I mounted it in a vise and heated it slowly with a heat gun. It held up until about 215 degrees. Then the surface began to get tacky. At 230 degrees it began to sag and become spongy and tacky. I think in another minute it would unravel and come apart.
So sad but I am declaring this experiment in printed parts a failure.
I think that printer parts can not be used at temperature that will occur on a motorcycle engine or carbs attached to said engine.


Not a lost cause. I learned a lot about cad and 3D printing. I will pursue this with either metal or other material that can stand the heat.

https://omnexus.specialchem.com/polymer ... rature#A-C
Last edited by gpineau on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By gpineau
#31743
I think I overworked my printer. It is an Ender-3.
Today the bed temperature is not controllable. As soon as you turn it on the bed temperature begins to rise. And I levels off at about 114 degrees. I have a window fan next to it but I hope that does not effect the bonding between layers.
User avatar
By PSIG
#31751
gpineau wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:23 pmIt held up until about 215 degrees. Then the surface began to get tacky. At 230 degrees it began to sag and become spongy and tacky. I think in another minute it would unravel and come apart.
Just a note for comparison, vinyl ester laminated or reinforced parts are used in modern engine covers and other engine compartment pieces, where the typical Tg is 210-220°F. Likewise, various nylon grades have been used since the '60s on everything from carburetor pump cams to connectors. You probably have some nylon parts on the original carbs. I wouldn't lose faith just yet.

David
By Experion
#31759
I recently printed intake adaptors to put ITB's on my brothers engine.
these are printed in Polymaker CoPa which is a fairly easily printable filament with realy high thermal limits
polymaker claim 180C although thats fairly subjective as they dont have any data on its strength at those temperatures

I printed both adapters at 265C nozzle and 70C bed temp with a 12mm brim on a Original Prusa MK2S
for adhesion its just the stock PEI sheet coated with glue stick.
Image

My shitty photography skills showing again :?
Image

Image

Image

I realise Im putting quite a lot of faith into this stuff but the itb setup will be supported by a metal bracket so the only thing the 3d printed part has to do is not melt completely and keep its shape under non boosted conditions which Im fairly confident it will.
By ric355
#31760
Experion wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:49 am I recently printed intake adaptors to put ITB's on my brothers engine.
these are printed in Polymaker CoPa which is a fairly easily printable filament with realy high thermal limits
polymaker claim 180C although thats fairly subjective as they dont have any data on its strength at those temperatures

I printed both adapters at 265C nozzle and 70C bed temp with a 12mm brim on a Original Prusa MK2S
for adhesion its just the stock PEI sheet coated with glue stick.

I realise Im putting quite a lot of faith into this stuff but the itb setup will be supported by a metal bracket so the only thing the 3d printed part has to do is not melt completely and keep its shape under non boosted conditions which Im fairly confident it will.
Interesting. I looked up the spec of this material and it does indeed say it is "heat resistant" up to 180c, but it also reports a Tg of only 67c. I wonder at what point between those two temperature ranges it becomes unable to support either its own weight or typical clamping forces from bolts or jubilee clips etc?
By Experion
#31761
Tg does not mean melting temperature as far as I know flexible filaments often have a Tg below 0C but that doesnt mean those are molten constantly
also its vicat softening temperature is 180C which to suggests it doesnt become butter soft untill that temperature...

if it does melt and it destroys the entire engine i will post about it :?
By ric355
#31762
Experion wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:53 am Tg does not mean melting temperature as far as I know flexible filaments often have a Tg below 0C but that doesnt mean those are molten constantly
also its vicat softening temperature is 180C which to suggests it doesnt become butter soft untill that temperature...

if it does melt and it destroys the entire engine i will post about it :?
I know it doesn't mean melting temperature; that's why I wrote the question about the point at which it ultimately gives way. It just seems odd that it is such a low number (it's significantly lower than ABS for example, at around 105c depending on the product). I wondered if it was just incorrect.

Flexible filaments wouldn't be flexible if they didn't have a low Tg. It stands to reason that if the Tg point is the point at which the material becomes non-glassy (flexible / rubbery / however you want to refer to it) then a component produced from it won't be able to maintain its own structure or withstand clamping forces at some point fairly near that temperature.

I hope it's just a mistake or a different interpretation of Tg, as it would be good to know there is something out there that isn't a super expensive material that can do this sort of job.
By Experion
#31765
Well I guess we will find out
As Im typing this Im printing a Hall sensor mount which Il be mounting to my car today.
Im not expecting anything to happen and after a week il also mount the sensor on it for a bit of added load.

also about the tG, if I look up Glass transition temperature on wikipedia it says PA (nylon) has a tG of 47-60 C while ABS has a tG of 105 like you said.
I dont think this is an issue for nylon as most car manufacturers use something like PA6-GF30 or PA6-GF50 for intake manifolds, those are just Glass-Fibre reinforced Nylons.

There is actualy a PA6-GF30 filament its just realy expensive.
https://www.owenscorning.com/composites/product/xstrand

you can see the TDS there as well
its realy strong stuff from what I can tell but realy expensive like I said, to give you a comparrison:

The stuff im using: Polymaker CoPa 70 euro's per 750 Gram which equates to 93.33 per kilo
XStrand GF30-PA6 90 euro's per 500 Gram which equates to 180 euro per kilo

to put that into perspective, the total filament on the intake adapters I showed was 280 grams
they were printed completely solid (or as far as thats possible) and the 280 grams includes the brim

which means the adapters cost 26,13 euros and about double that in the XSTRAND stuff.

Im not quite sure why i made this whole comparisson thing, maybe to give non 3d printing people an idea of what you can make for what price :)

-Gary
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