[Nick Vincent]

I also posted this on Facebook and was told to post this here:

Looking to get a little further understanding before digging into my Honda VF500 project.

I think already know how to get a crank signal (Swapping a ignition pulse wheel from a 1987+ VFR750 will give me a 12 -1 wheel.) So I think that is figured out.

I also will keep the whole wasted spark system since it works. Using a Detonator EMS dual channel ignition control module on the dumb coils.

Throttle bodies I will work out, but most likely will use ones from an Arctic Cat as I think I can adapt them to work the easiest along with them having a location for an injector already. Obviously will have to custom do linkage, and fuel rails.
Fuel supply I think I can use an external fuel pump and return style regulator after I get a hose connection welded on the tank.

I have some questions about the following:

-I believe I will run the injectors in pairs same as the coil pairings, will this work/be fine as I won't have any cam information?

-This engine has a slightly weird firing order (1 - 90 degrees - 4 - 270 degrees - 3 - 90 degrees - 2 - 270 degrees - 1 again). This can be tuned for by using oddfire angles in the software?

- Would I use a TPS from a single throttle body or would it just be easier to have the MAP sensor tied to all 4 throttle bodies for that input information? A user on Facebook suggested that I use the TPS on one of the Throttle bodies instead of MAP, I'm guessing this should be fine as long as the TB's are synced?

-Could I use one of the existing pulse generators with a VR conditioner to get the information from the crank? Or should this sensor be swapped?

-Would the UA4C be the best board for my project?

Hopefully I don't seem too clueless as I tried to do a bunch of research before posting here. Thanks in advance! I'm aware this is not a cost effective modification and is more or less for me to continue educating myself while having fun.

[jonbill]

Yes, the odd fire angle config should be able to handle that.
Yes, paired injection will work, same as wasted spark.
If you've using ITBs, you can use MAP with all four tied together or use TPS. Up to you - there are pluses and minuses for each.
If your TBs aren't synced, it won't run well whether you use MAP or TPS. (Aka speed density vs Alpha-N).

If you're happy with your detonation ign control, why not get a Detonation Speeduino EMS, and control fuel and ignition on it - I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to keep the $15 ign control unit.

[Nick Vincent]

Yes, the odd fire angle config should be able to handle that.
Yes, paired injection will work, same as wasted spark.
If you've using ITBs, you can use MAP with all four tied together or use TPS. Up to you - there are pluses and minuses for each.
If your TBs aren't synced, it won't run well whether you use MAP or TPS. (Aka speed density vs Alpha-N).

If you're happy with your detonation ign control, why not get a Detonation Speeduino EMS, and control fuel and ignition on it - I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to keep the $15 ign control unit.

Oh I just assumed that the Arduino couldn't control the dumb coils without the $15 ignition module. If I understand you correctly, the DetonationEMS Speeduino can do this without their $15 add on board?

Thank you for the rest of the information as well!

I guess in reality I should just ask what the best Speeduino board is for what I'm trying to accomplish. Whether it's pre-assembled or otherwise I am open to suggestions since there are so many options.

EDIT - After looking the DetonationEMS Pre-Ignition X2 should do what I want? But I most likely will still need the Ignition module to control the coils?

[jonbill]

Generally speeduino boards need a separate ignitor with dumb coils, but I thought the detonation boards have it built in. I could be wrong. might be worth asking him? (@detonation I think on discord).
apart from the ignitor question, I think any 2+ channel board would do it. proximity, connectors, packaging etc will probably swing it for one of them.

[Nick Vincent]

Generally speeduino boards need a separate ignitor with dumb coils, but I thought the detonation boards have it built in. I could be wrong. might be worth asking him? (@detonation I think on discord).
apart from the ignitor question, I think any 2+ channel board would do it. proximity, connectors, packaging etc will probably swing it for one of them.

I'll definitely reach out to ask.

Thank you for your help so far!

[PSIG]

I'll throw in some suggestions here, if it helps in planning:

Fuel supply I think I can use an external fuel pump and return style regulator after I get a hose connection welded on the tank.

Yes, but two options; most tank mods are with soldering, or an easy return-line option is a push-in fuel fitting or sealed bulkhead fitting (many versions).
Drill a hole, insert the grommet, and push-in the fitting. Available many places, including aircraft supply shops:

Push-in_fuel_fitting.jpg (15.21 KiB) Viewed 2964 times

Drill a hole, insert the fitting and O-ring from the back, and tighten the nut. Use whatever connection fitting you need:

airrcraft_fuel_bulkhead_fitting.jpg (13.82 KiB) Viewed 2964 times

-I believe I will run the injectors in pairs same as the coil pairings, will this work/be fine as I won't have any cam information?

Yes. Set injections to get quasi-sequential a.k.a. "double-shot sequential" (not semi-sequential). Each cylinder gets injected every 360° for timed even fuel distribution without a cam sensor.

-This engine has a slightly weird firing order (1 - 90 degrees - 4 - 270 degrees - 3 - 90 degrees - 2 - 270 degrees - 1 again). This can be tuned for by using oddfire angles in the software?

This is an even-fire 0-180 pattern. Not odd-fire. The first cylinder is set as 0° alternating 180°. No problem. Works for both ignition and fuel; paired coils and paired injectors (4-squirts per-cycle). This means you can use a 2-channel ECM of your choice (NO2C, C2C, Preignition-X2, etc).

- Would I use a TPS from a single throttle body or would it just be easier to have the MAP sensor tied to all 4 throttle bodies for that input information? A user on Facebook suggested that I use the TPS on one of the Throttle bodies instead of MAP, I'm guessing this should be fine as long as the TB's are synced?

I would suggest 1 TPS and collected MAP. TPS for AE, and blended AN (TPS+MAP) for fueling options.

-Could I use one of the existing pulse generators with a VR conditioner to get the information from the crank? Or should this sensor be swapped?

Yes. If the new wheel is readable by that sensor, you can use it. See other threads for similar setups.

-Would the UA4C be the best board for my project?

Multiple options. NO2C is solid and proven, needs assembly and case 3D print. C2C is much more expensive, but built, cased and ready to install. X2 is built, but needs a case like NO2C. There are others, but those should cover you. Ask for options and solutions from each supplier, e.g., WTMTronix had NO2C cases built on-order at one time, or printing files are around here somewhere.

NO2C_Case_Frac.jpg (114.83 KiB) Viewed 2964 times

NO2C_Snap_Mount.jpg (66.85 KiB) Viewed 2964 times

[jonbill]

I read "1 - 90 degrees - 4 - 270 degrees - 3 - 90 degrees - 2 - 270 degrees - 1 again" as 90 degrees between 1st cylinder firing and 2nd cylinder firing, then 270 degrees to the 3rd and so on. Odd fire. no?

[Nick Vincent]

I'll throw in some suggestions here, if it helps in planning:

Fuel supply I think I can use an external fuel pump and return style regulator after I get a hose connection welded on the tank.

Yes, but two options; most tank mods are with soldering, or an easy return-line option is a push-in fuel fitting or sealed bulkhead fitting (many versions).
Drill a hole, insert the grommet, and push-in the fitting. Available many places, including aircraft supply shops:
Push-in_fuel_fitting.jpg

Drill a hole, insert the fitting and O-ring from the back, and tighten the nut. Use whatever connection fitting you need:
airrcraft_fuel_bulkhead_fitting.jpg

-I believe I will run the injectors in pairs same as the coil pairings, will this work/be fine as I won't have any cam information?

Yes. Set injections to get quasi-sequential a.k.a. "double-shot sequential" (not semi-sequential). Each cylinder gets injected every 360° for timed even fuel distribution without a cam sensor.

-This engine has a slightly weird firing order (1 - 90 degrees - 4 - 270 degrees - 3 - 90 degrees - 2 - 270 degrees - 1 again). This can be tuned for by using oddfire angles in the software?

This is an even-fire 0-180 pattern. Not odd-fire. The first cylinder is set as 0° alternating 180°. No problem. Works for both ignition and fuel; paired coils and paired injectors (4-squirts per-cycle). This means you can use a 2-channel ECM of your choice (NO2C, C2C, Preignition-X2, etc).

- Would I use a TPS from a single throttle body or would it just be easier to have the MAP sensor tied to all 4 throttle bodies for that input information? A user on Facebook suggested that I use the TPS on one of the Throttle bodies instead of MAP, I'm guessing this should be fine as long as the TB's are synced?

I would suggest 1 TPS and collected MAP. TPS for AE, and blended AN (TPS+MAP) for fueling options.

-Could I use one of the existing pulse generators with a VR conditioner to get the information from the crank? Or should this sensor be swapped?

Yes. If the new wheel is readable by that sensor, you can use it. See other threads for similar setups.

-Would the UA4C be the best board for my project?

Multiple options. NO2C is solid and proven, needs assembly and case 3D print. C2C is much more expensive, but built, cased and ready to install. X2 is built, but needs a case like NO2C. There are others, but those should cover you. Ask for options and solutions from each supplier, e.g., WTMTronix had NO2C cases built on-order at one time, or printing files are around here somewhere.

NO2C_Case_Frac.jpgNO2C_Snap_Mount.jpg

That is some awesome info. I've actually never seen one of those push in bulkhead-ish fittings.

I ordered the DetonationEMS Pre-Ignition 2 last night along with the Mega 2560, DRV8825 for the IAC, A dual VR conditioner and a dual channel ignition module for the dumb coils. I will design and build a case that has waterproof properties since it's on a motorcycle.

I will verify the crank pulse with an O-scope after I swap in the new wheel. Then I will see if the Speeduino will read it. If necessary I can swap the sensor to the newer model's sensor as well.

[Nick Vincent]

I read "1 - 90 degrees - 4 - 270 degrees - 3 - 90 degrees - 2 - 270 degrees - 1 again" as 90 degrees between 1st cylinder firing and 2nd cylinder firing, then 270 degrees to the 3rd and so on. Odd fire. no?

I've attached an image from a manual and an explanation. I believe we understand it the same but it might just be the fact it's in a V configuration vs an inline is why I'm misunderstanding.

IMG_4697 (1).PNG (786.48 KiB) Viewed 2957 times

Here is an in-line 4 crank: 2 cylinders TDC and 2 at BDC

main-qimg-042221e2c955a3a81bff51f813fa196f-lq.jpeg (24.94 KiB) Viewed 2957 times

Here is a picture of the VF500 crank which would also leave 2 cylinders at TDC and 2 at BDC

s-l1600.jpeg (121.33 KiB) Viewed 2957 times

I think I understand what PSIG is getting at now.

[jonbill]

No, I think @psig just misread it, assuming you were saying 1 is at 90° and 4 is 180° later at 270. it's odd fire.