Any general discussion around the firmware, what is does, how it does it etc.
User avatar
By PSIG
#6195
RichCreations wrote:It does not change your argument, (or the truth of it), but this is not always true, marine thermostats often have both initial, and fully open temp ratings...
Agreed, and good point. Although my point for clarity (using same terms and basis) is whether the particular type or manufacturer has a fully-open spec available or not, they always have an initial opening or default "cracking" temp for the basis of operation. Use any spec you like if not the default, but it must be clear which spec it is, and why it's being used. Thaks for noting that, as it may help clear some confusion.
Image
David

Because it is the basis spec, the opening temperature is stamped on the thermostat, whether there is a second fully-open spec or not, such as this Cat Marine thermostat:
Image
By RichCreations
#6198
Because it is the basis spec, the opening temperature is stamped on the thermostat, whether there is a second fully-open spec or not, such as this Cat Marine thermostat:
To be honest, the only ones I have seen with both temps on them, are for direct, cold seawater cooling (no heat exchanger), and they specified fully open temp as well, as bad things happen above 150-160F using seawater for coolant, (they were in an ancient flathead hercules straight-6)...
User avatar
By cx500tc
#6209
VW/Audi's thing presented in PDF a bit ago uses valving (coolant distributor) to blend, as in mix, "warm" coolant from the engine and transmission exchanger with "cool" coolant from the radiator so as to put the engine in the optimal state for power or economy, as required. It's not quite as simple as the "PWM" control thing mentioned-
PSIG wrote:Due to the necessity of the VAG system to drop engine temperature under higher loads and heat generation, the fans use a "Pre-control pulse duty factor (dependent on specified temperature and engine speed)" which runs the fans more often, in order to have reserve cold coolant capacity to reduce engine temperatures quickly if throttled-up.
To be honest, I looked but couldn't find any reference to PWM fan control in the PDF, so I'm not sure how the following, sole mention of PWM within the PDF, turned into extrapolated PWM control over the fan:
Thermostat for mapped engine cooling
A heating resistor is integrated in the wax thermo-couple of the expansion-element thermostat.
This resistor additionally heats the wax, which expands causing the lifting pin to execute stroke “x“ in accordance with the map. The thermostat is adjusted mechanically via stroke x.
The heating is activated by the engine control unit in accordance with the map via a PWM (pulse-width modulated) signal.
The extent of heating varies depending on pulse width and time.
Now, maybe if you look at other parts of the PDF....

{page 18 of the PDF, summarized by me so not a technical quote, but it's there for you to figure out}
G62 (CLT) and G83 (RAD outlet) are both used for fan and engine temp control.
G83 signal is compared with G62 to form the basis for running the fans.
G62 signal is used to PWM heat the thermostat at the engine coolant outlet at the coolant distributor.
If G62 fails, 95C is used as default for heating the thermostat.
If G83 fails, the first fan runs.
If G62 and G83 fail, the thermostat is driven wide open and both fans run.
{page 21 of the PDF}
"The fan is controlled (first or second fan speed) depending on the temperature difference of the coolant between the engine outlet and the radiator outlet"
"The fan does not cut in at road speeds above 100kph, because the fan does not provide additional cooling at speeds higher than this."
"If faults occur in the circuit of the 1st fan output stage, the 2nd stage is activated by way of a substitute."
"If faults occur in the 2nd fan output stage, the thermostat for mapped engine cooling is fully energized (safety factor)."
Safety factor tells me they're driving the thermostat wide open for maximum coolant flow.... mentioned on page 18.
Still only PWM control over the thermostat heater- no fan.


So two sensors control the fan(s); those two sensors reveal the temperature differential across the radiator.
And the simplified version is you use the radiator outlet temp for fan control, or turn the fan(s) on if all else fails.
Where have I heard that before?
User avatar
By PSIG
#6212
Alright, then answer my questions to clarify and see if they support your hypothesis. If they do, or you believe they do; then plot the current performance of your current system, simply switch your system from engine outlet to radiator outlet sensor input for fan control, and test the theory. If you are correct in your testable predictions; your bike's ECM will control the engine temperatures under all conditions with less variation (better), always within limits (required), while running the fans less using only "temp entering the engine" temperature (your primary and required goals as first stated).

Considering it's just a series of TunerStudio data logs and moving the input for fan control to the radiator outlet / engine inlet section; an afternoon to a weekend would prove your theories and allow you to post your better system results. In the interest of seeing the results quickly, I will even offer one of the stick-on NTC temperature sensors I make, if you do not have an easier, simpler, or faster method available to gather the data.

David

Here is the plan of action. It is the "ongoing" process rather that "one-shot" as your goal (or at least mine) is to have something that works. In consideration of others invested and watching this thread, please post your progress daily. Simple, positive, and productive when done correctly (click to enlarge):
Image
User avatar
By cx500tc
#6215
No need to answer any further questions, as far as I can tell, as they're superfluous at best.

The VW/Audi PDF supports my hypothesis that the CLT sensor cannot be relied on for engine temp / fan control; you have not refuted my interpretation of said PDF ergo my interpretation is correct. Further, said PDF also addresses CLT faults, with their system causing the thermostat to fully open if the sensor faults, as opposed to turning on a fan. Fan control is still relegated to the radiator outlet temperature sensor, which makes the rad sensor both the primary control of the fan, and its faulting condition, should that occur, the fail-safe as well.

Do note VAG is one of the major vehicle manufacturer's in the world and their brands comprise many of the most high-performance marques available, as well as many of the most economical.


Re: my bike. When Speeduino supports it, I'll consider logging what you request.


PSIG wrote:Alright, then answer my questions to clarify and see if they support your hypothesis. If they do, or you believe they do; then plot the current performance of your current system, simply switch your system from engine outlet to radiator outlet sensor input for fan control, and test the theory. If you are correct in your testable predictions; your bike's ECM will control the engine temperatures under all conditions with less variation (better), always within limits (required), while running the fans less using only "temp entering the engine" temperature (your primary and required goals as first stated).

Considering it's just a series of TunerStudio data logs and moving the input for fan control to the radiator outlet / engine inlet section; an afternoon to a weekend would prove your theories and allow you to post your better system results. In the interest of seeing the results quickly, I will even offer one of the stick-on NTC temperature sensors I make, if you do not have an easier, simpler, or faster method available to gather the data.

David

Here is the plan of action. It is the "ongoing" process rather that "one-shot" as your goal (or at least mine) is to have something that works. In consideration of others invested and watching this thread, please post your progress daily. Simple, positive, and productive when done correctly (click to enlarge):
Image
User avatar
By PSIG
#6219
cx500tc wrote:No need to answer any further questions ...
:lol: Now that is classic! You will not directly answer any of my simple questions about your statements? Then PROVE IT. You are all indignant and upset because instead of helping you chase squirrels by examining even more of the VAG pdf or other replies I could make, I am calling you out. PROVE IT. Holding my tongue in-response after seeing that it is time wasted trying to help is in no way any proof of anything or support for your hypothesis. More fallacies. I could be horribly mistaken, so take that opportunity to establish your righteousness, and PROVE IT. It's easy. Step on my head and thrust the dagger in. Just PROVE IT. Speeduino supports it right now by doing the stuff in my last post and changing the fan control reference to the new AUX input. You can handle that easy, so DO IT NOW. It's your hypothesis anyway—so it's up to you to PROVE IT.

You don't want to touch the code or anything in the current system? :x Or, you don't have Speeduino set-up on your bike right now? :cry: No problem! Just tape an adjustable $5 to $15 fan controller on your bike, with the included sensor at the radiator outlet/engine inlet (not the radiator inlet as instructions say). 10 minutes to do that. To log the results; just tap into the original fan power wire and the new controller's power wire, feeding them into AUX 1 and 2 inputs on Speeduino, along with tapping the bikes CLT feed to CLT. Speedy doesn't even have to be installed or doing anything else. Log a drive. It will show when the original fan control triggers ON/OFF, and when the new controller would ON/OFF, along with actual engine temperature for baseline. Pull off the road and swap the power wires for the new controller to control. Repeat logging. Done. $5-15 and an afternoon to PROVE IT. Gosh, how many ways can I try to help you with your ideas? There are few cheaper and easier ways to PROVE IT than that; but there are yet other methods in-case there are more excuses.

You're not just here just to argue, troll, or bullshìt us, right? Right? Great! Then don't be all nice and "consider" testing for ME, as you will have to do it in order to make your system work anyway. It's a necessary step to adjust your system. So, unless you're full of it, no more hot air. Do the setup this weekend. I've done many similar tests (and why I designed my stick-on sensor), and it's easy. You know it's easy also. DO IT. You said you want a better electric fan system than all those stupid automotive OEM engineers have made for 50 years, and I'm always for something better myself, so PROVE IT. I'll be right here. Oh, crap—doing it means it will prove something, even if you don't intend to! :o So, you still get to prove your hypothesis and get your better fan system in any case! Woohoo! :D PROVE IT!

David
User avatar
By cx500tc
#6222
Everything I've mentioned has mostly been substantiated; answering your questions is superfluous.

If Josh decides to implement fan control based on CLT, the end user deserves to know the ramifications and its shortcomings.

If you were paying attention you'd know why I can't use my bike, and also why the 22RE can't be used... at least at the moment.



Post your explanations and theories as to how VAG are wrong, and I am wrong; maybe I'll respond.
User avatar
By cx500tc
#6223
While we're at it, please explain how your solution works with an engine outputting 205F coolant and the coolant entering the engine is 75F.

By your logic, the fan should be running because the engine is close to overheating, but the coolant entering the engine is mean ambient temp for the lake I live near.


edit- thanks @RichCreations for bringing up marine systems.
User avatar
By cx500tc
#6224
@noisymime-
Please put code in so that the user can control a cooling fan base on CLT temperatures.
If you can PWM it, maybe that'd be even better.

Thanks,
Kirk / cx500tc
By noisymime
#6229
cx500tc wrote:@noisymime-
Please put code in so that the user can control a cooling fan base on CLT temperatures.
If you can PWM it, maybe that'd be even better.
Will be next month, but I'll add it to the list.
  • 1
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13
  • 14
  • 15

Hi, I am trying to assign Signed values to the x-a[…]

Vr Conditioner Noise when cranking

New version 202305 don't fix the issue. Now after[…]

blitzbox

I've finally figured out why MAP and Lambda weren'[…]

Hello, I bring news!! Let me tell you that after […]

Still can't find what you're looking for?