Any general discussion around the firmware, what is does, how it does it etc.
#48836
Chris Wolfson wrote:What engine are we talking about? A base map to start with is nice to have, but not essential.
Why don´t you read out the current tunes file, find the ignition map and start from there. You can use free versions of chip tuning software to find such maps in a few seconds.
With ignition systems I was unable to read out (Marelli Digiplex) I took the workshop manual and copied the diagrams printed there into a basic map.

Usually, factory tunes are made to limit power in high rpm, so the engines last longer. This is made with both, ignition timing and fueling. So, in the end you will run something quite different, for optimized performance.
Reading the ecu is easier but only if you have the hardware interfaces to hook up to it, software, and they're engine specific. And for some you're limited to reading eeprom and extracting tables - that's not something an average speeduino user can do :?
I'm thinking that a datalogger board like I'm proposing is a lot more straight forward, don't you think?
The particular engine is question is a Suzuki GSX-R600 from 2002
#48841
Aivaras Seduika wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:41 am
theonewithin wrote:Is there a reason why you want to log this info?

None of it will be useful if you switch to aftermarket ECU.
Its to log a factory tune, and replicate it onto a speeduino as a base reference tune to work from.
Basically trying to avoid dyno time, which is expensive.

Mostly ignition advance vs rpm & injector pw/map vs rpm.

Using a cts you can get an idea of how much warm up enrichment is being used
Notice that we try to be nice here and ask why you want something, as you may be experienced and know exactly what you're doing for a specific purpose, rather than say you don't know what you're doing and you're wasting your time. This is where many experienced tuners will roll their eyes at logging factory numbers, as there is (usually) no need to waste the time. However, I will suggest that many new tuners do not know how to tune factors such as ignition timing or WUE fueling, and so they look for something to guide them.

The desire to log factory numbers is a common sign that the tuner does not know how to tune well yet. In these cases, the better answer for best timing and quick results is to use the time and effort to learn ignition tuning or how to tune warm-up, etc. @theonewithin is being friendly, open-minded and diplomatic, but he (and we) need to know what you're after, and why, in order to offer best answers, guidance or suggestions. ;) If you are a new tuner, it's nothing to be embarrassed about, as none of us were born with this knowledge and we all had to learn it. If you're an expert, tell us what you're doing and why, and we will probably be interested and maybe we can help. :lol:
#48849
Hey @PSIG

Sorry if I was being vague at any point!

My intentions are to reduce downtime in switching to speeduino (or any ecu for that matter).

I don't want to take a working running car/bike off the road for months while I street tune it bit by bit from scratch - I want to log the engine while using it with it's stock ECU, extracting enough data to then install speedy, replicate the maps and be back up and running.

I know there are maps out there and they can be generated that give you a starting point, and ones from similar engines can be close enough, but I'm wanting a starting point closer to stock. Especially ignition advance.

I spent quite a bit of time in the past street tuning an engine on megasquirt, and wished I knew what the factory ignition advance map was.
I'm not an experienced tuner by any means, and obviously taking it to a dyno or paying someone to tune it is the best solution, but it's not really in the spirit of Speeduino to throw money at problems :D
#48860
The stock ECU will be changing things based on a lot more factors than what speedy does though so the data you get out will not correlate correctly.

Just throw a safe ignition table at it and it will run.

Then get down to a dyno to have it done properly.

Just because a Speeduino us cheap doesn't mean you can't do things properly.
#48874
As you even picked a very well tuned motor bike engine, there is a very small chance you will improve anything. If you have limited experience in tuning and do not want to pay for a rolling road made set up, this is close to impossible. On the road you can not tune with your a laptop open while a buddy is driving, like in a car. You can not listen for knock or watch some kind of knock indicator and Tuner studio maps at the same time.

@theonewithin
Many car engines have ignition retard in the high rpm range, with rich mixture. That makes the power curve drop sharply after max horsepower. "Open" engines curves run out much flatter on the top. You can see that on most dyno sheets. Manufacturers want engines to last during warranty, so highest rpm are a risk. Many modern ECU´s count how often you reached the rpm limiter. That way they can blame the customer for blowing expensive engines. At least in Europe. Some engines are rpm limited until water/ oil have some temperature, for the same reason.
"Engine Protection" is the one of the significant differences aftermarket and modern stock ECU´s have. The engine has to be smarter than the idiot that drives the car. Downsized engines are basically race engines produced dead cheap. Compare the HP/ litre output of today´s production cars with super cars of the past and you see why.
#48934
Tuning became much easier for me when I finally realized I can't do it all in real-time. I do not tune real-time for most things anymore. I operate the engine (drive it) with care in the area I'm tuning and take logs with TS or MLV. Then I go back to the pits or the garage (or side of the road for small stuff), reading and analyzing the data with MLV and make tuning adjustments with TS.

You can't assimilate all the running info and data on-the-fly, so I don't even try. This all makes on-road and race track timing and fuel tuning possible, while also allowing tuning to be much safer and far more effective. While it is simpler to do multiple sweeps on a dyno and overlay them for data points, the same effect is possible using logs. In-fact, there is an overlay option in MegaLogViewer, which is the program I use for 90% of my tuning with systems such as this. Data is your friend. Log everything and learn how to read it. Then after some practice, you will hear angels singing. Or some hear trumpets. :lol: I don't know what you will hear besides exhaust, but it will be cool.
#48935
Thanks for the advice PSIG.
It's how I ended up tuning a couple of NA+t engines on ms, but the issue for me is that the initial ignition table is a stab in the dark.
I feel like if I have a stock ignition table to start from, I'll just pull 5 degrees in positive MAP and start from there. I can be confident that under 100 kpa the engine should feel more or less like it did NA (if using speed density).
Equally, there's a good chance you can add a few degrees under vacuum anyway as stock numbers can be conservative.
That is a LOT of time saved on the butt-dyno and a lot of guesswork confirmed from the start.

And for fuelling, well that would mostly be over-written anyway if adding a turbo, but still useful if making small modifications to an NA engine, the relative change in injector pw over the load/rpm graph will give you a lot of information you wouldn't otherwise have, and you can quickly replicate those into TS against what was auto-generated.

From what you guys are saying, it sounds like you think it wouldn't be very useful - I take your points :)
#48937
Cool. Not trying to be hard on you, but offering what we feel is helpful. Unfortunately, the butt-dyno really doesn't work, and guessing is where we get screwed-up. The answer to these is data. Did it actually accelerate quicker from 3000 to 4000 rpm? The logs will tell you the real story.

In the time you are trying to log old data, I can generate a sloppy timing table and have made a handful of runs, finding exactly what the engine wants for peak performance from new data. I'm done, and you are just now loading your old data, which is also incorrect and needs what I just did. In either scenario we are using numbers we know are not ultimately correct, but it's a place to begin tuning. A guessed or generated table is no worse (if it starts the engine) and much quicker. See the popular "wedge" table below as a starting table. No reason you can't skip the old data, just load something like that, and get to tuning. ;) Either way it's gonna be fun. 8-)

This was a 2-minute table for a non-existent engine. It is not useful for anything but concept:
quickie-boost-startup-table.jpg
quickie-boost-startup-table.jpg (145.97 KiB) Viewed 4164 times

3D of the same table, and why they are often called wedge tables:
quickie-boost-startup-table-3D.jpg
quickie-boost-startup-table-3D.jpg (51.7 KiB) Viewed 4164 times

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