For any discussion not specifically related to your project
#68122
Virgilio Caio wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:11 pm Another question, with the Max9926 conditioner i can just input my pickup coil signal to the Speeduino, no other treatment needed? In this module there is 2 resistors holes empty, available to install, anyone have some inside about that?
The MAX chip wouldn't be my preferred option, it will time out at low speed and be vulnerable to noise causing spurious triggering. The LM1815 or a discrete circuit would be more reliable.
The resistors are used to reduce the voltage going into the MAX chip, you need to set those so you get a reasonable voltage at cranking speeds, 0.5V or more, without pushing too much current into the MAX at higher RPM.
#68128
I will study about that, maybe i can input some voltage (let´s say 5 volts) to the pickup coil and make a simple circuit to just detect the distortion on the current consumption by the coil when it passes the magnet... And then feed this to the Speeduino.

The other option is to use the original TCI box to give me a clean 12v on and off signal, the problem with that is that i think the box do some timing advance electronically... Talking about that, inside the box there is a Toshiba IC, maybe it is the LM1815... I will open it up again as soon as i can and post here.

I will see the option of installing a hall effect sensor... the A3144 sensor would be OK to do the job?

My biggest concern is the way i will configure the software part of the thing, i will get my hands on a arduino, so at the moment i cant load the software and see the options TunnerStudio gives me...

It will be "dumb coil" and that´s it ?

JHolland wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:23 am
Virgilio Caio wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:11 pm Another question, with the Max9926 conditioner i can just input my pickup coil signal to the Speeduino, no other treatment needed? In this module there is 2 resistors holes empty, available to install, anyone have some inside about that?
The MAX chip wouldn't be my preferred option, it will time out at low speed and be vulnerable to noise causing spurious triggering. The LM1815 or a discrete circuit would be more reliable.
The resistors are used to reduce the voltage going into the MAX chip, you need to set those so you get a reasonable voltage at cranking speeds, 0.5V or more, without pushing too much current into the MAX at higher RPM.
#68130
I will as soon as i get home today, probably around 22h (GMT - 03:00)..

Thanks a lot for the support!
JHolland wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:47 pm
Virgilio Caio wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:05 pm Talking about that, inside the box there is a Toshiba IC, maybe it is the LM1815... I will open it up again as soon as i can and post here.
Post a picture of the inside of the box so we can take a look at it.
#68132
The timing control of the stock ignition control module (ICM) is entirely different from Speeduino. The tooth is the maximum advance width, from rising to trailing edge. Like most of the era, the trigger leading edge is the first reference for max timing (wait - we're not there yet ;)).

The trailing edge is the initial low-speed firing reference point. [The equivalent in Speeduino is Fix Timing to Trigger, and it fires instantly when it sees the trailing edge at cranking and low speeds.] There is no calculation or other magic required. Simple. As rpm increases, the ICM firing point moves towards the leading edge, as a simple delay from the leading edge. At high-rpm, there is no delay and max timing is at the leading edge.

From this we can see that the original ICM only required a leading and trailing edge to function timing between them. Very limiting, but very simple. Speeduino is different, and uses multiple passing teeth to calculate current crank position, speed, etc, in order to calculate the timing of both dwell and firing at any point in the crankshaft rotation. The number of teeth during rotation increases the calculation accuracy for these timings, or 'resolution'. Much different and very useful for multiple-cylinder engines and advanced functions.
Virgilio Caio wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:59 pm Ok, just to clarify: I will setup it as a "dumb coil" and Trigger edge - Whether the primary signal triggers on the Rising or Falling edge.
– VR Conditioners require specific setting depending on model used:
* VR conditioners based on MAX9926 or LM ICs should use RISING. This includes Drop-
bear units

That is correct?
Mostly. VR sensors have a polarity, and the image you posted of the VR signal is correct polarity for our uses. See that it has a rising edge at the front, and a falling edge at the back, corresponding to the rising and falling physical tooth edges. Normally, we want to read the falling sensor signal edge as a more stable edge to read, then use that position to calculate the next dwell and firing - not the current one. Now we can see how calculating for future firings would benefit greatly from multiple teeth with more calculations and greater resolution for accuracy. ;)

Once we have the signal to the ECM, then the VR conditioner will either be inverting output (reverse the signal edge from Falling to Rising) such as MAX and some LM conditioners, or NON-inverting (passes signal edge without inverting, so Falling is Falling) such as the DSC, and many others. The polarity of the signal, and the inversion (or not) of the signal, will provide best timing reference and the ability to properly read signal gaps (missing teeth).

The combination of the two conditions (polarity and inversion) indicates the setting for Trigger Edge to read these edges properly. I hope the differences in timing control, and the multiple factors in VR polarity, inversion and Trigger Edge are helping differences of function and understanding.
#68144
Thanks for all the information, this is awesome!

Base on what you sad i can deduce that my stock ignition module dos nothing in respect of timing, so, if i just use his output that was connected to the ignition coil i will get a nice 12v square wave to feed into my speeduino (converting it into 5v somehow..) I will post a detail photo of the circuit inside my ignition box, so we can confirm that...

The great motivation to go forward with an EFI to me is the ability to use alcohol as fuel (i´m from Brazil and here we have 100% (actually 96%, 4% water) alcohol on the gas station... ) That been said, it will be great to advance more than 25 degrees that the stock setup allows, to do that i simple have to extend the notch (starting at the rising edge pulse, counterclockwise) on my rotor?


Thank you very much for all the information. :D
PSIG wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:56 pm The timing control of the stock ignition control module (ICM) is entirely different from Speeduino. The tooth is the maximum advance width, from rising to trailing edge. Like most of the era, the trigger leading edge is the first reference for max timing (wait - we're not there yet ;)).

The trailing edge is the initial low-speed firing reference point. [The equivalent in Speeduino is Fix Timing to Trigger, and it fires instantly when it sees the trailing edge at cranking and low speeds.] There is no calculation or other magic required. Simple. As rpm increases, the ICM firing point moves towards the leading edge, as a simple delay from the leading edge. At high-rpm, there is no delay and max timing is at the leading edge.

From this we can see that the original ICM only required a leading and trailing edge to function timing between them. Very limiting, but very simple. Speeduino is different, and uses multiple passing teeth to calculate current crank position, speed, etc, in order to calculate the timing of both dwell and firing at any point in the crankshaft rotation. The number of teeth during rotation increases the calculation accuracy for these timings, or 'resolution'. Much different and very useful for multiple-cylinder engines and advanced functions.
Virgilio Caio wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:59 pm Ok, just to clarify: I will setup it as a "dumb coil" and Trigger edge - Whether the primary signal triggers on the Rising or Falling edge.
– VR Conditioners require specific setting depending on model used:
* VR conditioners based on MAX9926 or LM ICs should use RISING. This includes Drop-
bear units

That is correct?
Mostly. VR sensors have a polarity, and the image you posted of the VR signal is correct polarity for our uses. See that it has a rising edge at the front, and a falling edge at the back, corresponding to the rising and falling physical tooth edges. Normally, we want to read the falling sensor signal edge as a more stable edge to read, then use that position to calculate the next dwell and firing - not the current one. Now we can see how calculating for future firings would benefit greatly from multiple teeth with more calculations and greater resolution for accuracy. ;)

Once we have the signal to the ECM, then the VR conditioner will either be inverting output (reverse the signal edge from Falling to Rising) such as MAX and some LM conditioners, or NON-inverting (passes signal edge without inverting, so Falling is Falling) such as the DSC, and many others. The polarity of the signal, and the inversion (or not) of the signal, will provide best timing reference and the ability to properly read signal gaps (missing teeth).

The combination of the two conditions (polarity and inversion) indicates the setting for Trigger Edge to read these edges properly. I hope the differences in timing control, and the multiple factors in VR polarity, inversion and Trigger Edge are helping differences of function and understanding.
#68147
Here are the photos from my ignition box (TCI)📸

PS: I have searched for the datasheet of the CI and close to none information about it I found :( .
JHolland wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:47 pm
Virgilio Caio wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:05 pm Talking about that, inside the box there is a Toshiba IC, maybe it is the LM1815... I will open it up again as soon as i can and post here.
Post a picture of the inside of the box so we can take a look at it.
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#68148
Ps2: I know the wiring - Black is negative, red with the white strip is positive, white goes to the ignition coil, green and orange goes to the pickup coil.
JHolland wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:47 pm
Virgilio Caio wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:05 pm Talking about that, inside the box there is a Toshiba IC, maybe it is the LM1815... I will open it up again as soon as i can and post here.
Post a picture of the inside of the box so we can take a look at it.
:D
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#68153
Virgilio Caio wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:39 pm Base on what you sad i can deduce that my stock ignition module dos nothing in respect of timing,
Yes, it advances up to 25° from base timing.

Virgilio Caio wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:39 pmThat been said, it will be great to advance more than 25 degrees that the stock setup allows, to do that i simple have to extend the notch (starting at the rising edge pulse, counterclockwise) on my rotor?
I do not know if it will continue to remove delay, to increase advance, if you make the trigger longer.
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