[lovosal]

Hello, I bring news!!

Let me tell you that after a few hours I managed to get the car to start!!! , but it's not all happiness.
I'll update you.
After counting the teeth, I got 256, I put them in the speeduino and tried to start it, but it wouldn't start. Curious fact, what should the graph have changed when adding those 256 degrees? or would it stay the same? We are talking about the crankshaft pulley.
Seeing that it did not start, I modified the data and tried all the options I had; 96 and 276 but it also did not start.
After many attempts I put the original ECU back in so that the car could at least start and spit out all the excess gasoline... but it didn't work either.
So I was trying to start it for 30 minutes and nothing. Desperate, I started checking to see if gas was coming in, if there was a spark, and nothing. everything was ok. so I went for some basic maintenance... take out the spark plugs and bingo!! They were wet!!
so I got them ready by cleaning them and finally started the car with the original ECU!!!
All this after many attempts and useless log recordings, hehehe.
Well, after it was booted for a while I tried the speeduino...
I did the first start and it seemed like it wouldn't start but when I accelerated to maximum it started!!!
Without accelerating, it won't start... if you keep it at maximum, yes, but with work. I'm quite happy but I think it's still an illusion.
If it takes longer, I'll send you the photos and files.
Now it's time for it to start well and stay on!!
Let's see what you see that is failing.

Thanks for the help!!

[lovosal]

Today I was with the car again looking for what could be the problems why it couldn't start.
And it seems that the main problem I have is in the spark. More like the spark and coil configuration.
I have been looking for information and videos of first starts on the internet and I found one from the speeduino forum, which mentioned that to improve the start you had to touch the Dwell.
So I started trying changes in those parameters and surprise!! The car now wants to start more, but still, I can't start it. I have modified this data, even reaching critical values ​​using the "trial and error" method, but even so, I can't get it to start.
This may also be due to some other misconfiguration error that you have that you have not yet located.
Every day I keep looking for more information about my coils and my injector, but at the moment I can't find anything that works for me. If after a while I still can't find the data I need, I think I'm going to choose to buy some racing coils that match my car since this way I will have a better coil and, most importantly, all the data on that coil that also They are proven. I think it will be a very good base from which to start.
With the injector I may do the same although in this case I have obtained some more information thanks to a friend who works in an automobile parts store.
Anyway, and in case anyone sees something that I couldn't see, I'm going to update the information by attaching these latest logs in which I managed to "almost start" the car and some photos of what I've been touching, including the "critical" data. which I have reached and how it is now configured.
Thank you and greetings.

[Rednaxs60]

Another neophite here. Haven't read your complete thread yet. You and I have similar timelines. The recommendations here from the collective are practically right on the mark. I have gone down the proverbial "rabbit hole" on many an occasion, but always return to what has been recommended. I have been discouraged many a time, but still persist.

Have tried many options over the past year, and always end up going back to the basics mentioned on this forum.

I am using the Speeduino board v0.4.4., have changed the EFI system on my bike to sequential fuel and ignition, COP, new coils driver, and such.

Fuel - too much. BTDT, early on pic of plugs:

Spark Plugs Black - too much fuel.JPG (66.68 KiB) Viewed 423 times

Plugs with better air-fuel ratio:

Fuelling Control.JPG (73.15 KiB) Viewed 423 times

Posted these pictures to show that I have been where you are.

You mention that you are adjusting the trigger angle to get an engine start. Need to set trigger angle with a timing light, Set it with a locked timing of "0" or "10" degrees with the cranking advance angle set to "0". Once you determine the trigger angle from this, unlock the timing, set the cranking angle to the degrees used when locked and check the trigger angle, should be the same. I've been down this road and have played with the trigger settings only to go back to the beginning and start over with this procedure.

VE table - reduce the VE table cell values. Need to do this to reduce the amount of fuel being injected. If your plugs are as shown at initial start, the VE table cell values throughout the table are probably too rich, Once you get the engine started and idled, and have reduced the VE table idle cell values so the plugs are not black and wet - recommend a global table cell value reduction of say 5 points to start.

Cranking Advance - set to 10 degrees
Dwell Settings - Cranking Dwell 4.5 ms/Running Dwell 3.5 ms/Spark duration 1.5 to 2.0 ms. Use these unless you have data to support the values your pics show.
Dwell Voltage correction - "zero" out for initial start
Injector priming delay - set to "0" for now. Set the fuel injector open time to 1.0 ms to start.
Cranking enrichment taper time - set to "0"
ASE at 80 degrees - set to 5 (this is for warm starts)
Set up a wedge table for spark (ignition timing). Works in the short term.

You are looking to get a smooth stable idle. Set the idle spark timing to 10/15 degrees BTDC, most engines will idle in this ignition timing range. Jack up the idle above what you want to end at, say 2000/2500 RPM. Keep the engine started. Adjust the VE table cell values for this RPM range. Once the idle at this RPM is smooth and stable, drop the RPM a few notches, repeat process as many times as necessary to get to the base idle you want.

If you are using plugs as a gauge, recommend viewing this video (others are available online): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvTeyNM_BwY&t=991s and this web site info: https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-in ... A-3063102/. I take my plugs apart occasionally.

As I mentioned, new to this as well and there are a lot of variables. No expert, but have learned a lot. Have started road trials that are progressing well I think. Most of this post is from recommendations of several sage individuals. Hope this is of help.

Good luck.

[Rednaxs60]

Looked at your tune from a novice perspective.

IAT retard, "0" out at this time.

VE table cell values for the idle range, take it this is the 14 degrees at 1000/1500 range, are for rich fuelling. I would decrease these to the 30/40 VE range for the expected idle range for a start. As an aside, the VE table is an air table, and the cell values are used in the PW calculation. Example, for a VE cell value of 50, represents 50% of the 100% volume of the engine at 100% efficiency. For a 1200 cc engine this represents 600 cc of air at 100% efficiency. This value gets multiplied with the RF in the PW calculation and is why this table is commonly referred to as the fuel table. The lower the numbers the less the fuel injector PW, the leaner the engine fuelling is. This is opposite the AFR table values where the smaller the value, the leaner the air-fuel mixture.

I have done what you have, if something wasn't working try another TS feature, or install a new component. Got so many different features and components on the go that I was not able to progress. Only when I went back to the start and the basic recommendations was I able to progress the engine tune.

For coil and fuel injector voltage correction at this time, I would set the voltage correction to 100% for all settings to start. Once the engine is started and idling well, adjust the voltage correction to reasonable values for the different voltage levels.

As @PSIG continuously told me, "0"/disable any non-essential feature and leave alone until later. Use the generic settings until you get a stable smooth idle with lowest MAP reading. Keep the generic settings and start road trials/engine tuning.

From @PSIG, need to have a good stable, smooth idle at normal engine operating temperature so that WUE can be calibrated to suit.

For road trials, VE table cell values first. When you are satisfied that you have populated the VE table as good as possible for the moment, tune the spark table. Advancing the timing will lean out the fuelling, retarding will richen the fuelling. You will probably have to go back and forth between VE and spark tables to get best engine performance. Once the VE and spark tables are set, you can then populate the AFR able. Once the AFR table is set, you can try and enable the O2 sensor.

Once the VE and spark tables are set, even before, you can try adjusting the fuel injector open time a point at a time up or down. If you do this during the initial engine tuning, change the setting being targeted, and leave the other adjustments alone for that specific road trial. If we were more or very experienced, you could probably be more aggressive. Dwell and spark duration adjusted as well. Just do one feature at a time, operate the engine for a day or so (or a road trial or two) to determine if the change was beneficial or not - check data logs. Move on to the next issue. It's an exercise in experimentation.

Other features such as Idle advance settings, acceleration enrichment (AE) and such can be looked at and enabled.

Do data logs for starts and engine operation. I do this every time, but still learning about what it is I am looking at.

I feel your frustration, but it will all come together. Good Luck.

[lovosal]

Hello
Thank you for answering me and clarifying many doubts...
First of all, I would like to say that I am starting with the TunerStudio MS program and there are many things and many functions that I do not know and that I do not know what they are or what they do, but I am studying them.
I'm glad that someone else went through the same thing as me and was able to get past this problem and make it work, it gives me hope to achieve it.

I would also like to say that in these latest translations, which are done by Google, I am having problems understanding them, in fact in your last message the translation has been so "strange" that most of the things have been incomprehensible to me. I have taken to translating them manually with the consequent delay in responding to you, I am very sorry.
Even so, after translating it there are things that I still don't understand and others that, even if I understand them, I don't know how to do them. So if you don't mind, I'm going to expose them here in case you could explain them to me. I will also post photos of what I have managed to understand and have done (or so I think).
The main problem I have is with the VE tables. At the moment I don't understand how it works, I don't know what values ​​are there, if they are percentages or degrees or I don't know what they are... and I don't know what number I should put and why, for example, put 25 and not put 18. I know that It is arranged on one axis by revolutions and on another by percentage of the engine's gasoline load, but little else. I keep watching videos to try to understand something. What I have done has been to generate a new VE table that is more adjusted to my engine and in relation to the one I had previously it has changed.
"ASE at 80 degrees - set to 5 (this is for warm starts)
Set up a wedge table for spark (ignition timing). Works in the short term." This I don't quite understand its meaning or what it refers to. Could you tell me what you mean and where it is in the tunerstudio?

"You are looking to get a smooth stable idle. Set the idle spark timing to 10/15 degrees BTDC, most engines will idle in this ignition timing range. Jack up the idle above what you want to end at, say 2000/2500 RPM Keep the engine started. Adjust the VE table cell values ​​for this RPM range. Once the idle at this RPM is smooth and stable, drop the RPM a few notches, repeat process as many times as necessary to get to the base idle you want " I can't understand this either. I have tried to translate it but I still can't understand it. Where is this to adjust it in tuner studio MS? Increase the idle speed to 2000/2500 rpm? Please, if you can, would you explain it to me too?
"IAT delay, "0" at this time."
If I have not translated wrong, telling you that my car does not have an IAT sensor, then I think it does not affect me.
"The VE table cell values ​​for the idle range, let's say they are 14 degrees in the 1000/1500 range, are for rich fuel. To start, I would reduce them to the 30/40 VE range for the expected idle range Additionally, the VE table is an overhead table and the cell values ​​are used in the PW calculation. For example, for a VE cell value of 50, it represents 50% of 100% of the engine volume at an efficiency 100%. For a 1200cc engine, this represents 600cc of air at 100% efficiency. This value is multiplied by the RF in the PW calculation and is why this table is commonly known as the fuel table The lower the numbers, the lower the fuel injector PW and the leaner the engine fuel will be. This is opposite to the AFR table values ​​where the lower the value, the leaner the air-fuel mixture. fuel."
This part referring to the VE tables, at the moment I don't even know how to get my hands on it, honestly it sounded like Chinese to me since I don't understand what numbers to put or why those numbers are put and even less where to put them in the table. I think this part is going to cost me a lot (and I know it is one of the most important ).
"I have done what you have, if something wasn't working try another TS feature, or install a new component. Got so many different features and components on the go that I was not able to progress. Only when I went back to the start and the basic recommendations was I able to progress the engine tune." Here I don't know what you mean by changing to another TS or installing a new component. Where in tubner studio can I see this?
"For coil and fuel injector voltage correction at this time, I would set the voltage correction to 100% for all settings to start. Once the engine is started and running well, adjust the voltage correction to reasonable values ​​for the different voltage levels."
Here the same thing happens to me as in the previous one.

"Once the VE and Spark tables are configured"
The same thing happens to me with the Spark tables as with the VE tables... I keep reading and watching videos.

I'm very sorry for writing so much, I hope you don't mind.
thank you

[Rednaxs60]

Will address each issue in multiple posts. Being a novice, this is my understanding of what I posted and you asked about.

VE table, ASE and wedge tables.

I had to learn about the VE table as well. The VE table cell values are a percentage of the total amount of air that the engine can use at 100 percent. For a 1000 cc engine naturally aspirated (NA) engine, the total amount of air that the engine can use at 100% and wide-open throttle is 1000 cc. The VE table cell values are a percentage of this 100%. If you see a cell value of 50, this means that the engine requires only 50% of air (500 cc) for the correct air-fuel mixture at that specific engine RPM/load combination.

The fuel injector pulse width is based on a formula that multiplies the required fuel (RF) value by the VE table cell value for a specific RPM/engine load. If the VE table cell value is 50 representing 50% of the total amount of air for the engine and the RF is 6.4 ms (total fuel required for your engine at wide open throttle). The fuel injector pulse width calculation is: (RF x VE) + other small variables such as fuel injector open time = fuel injector pulse width. In this case, the fuel injector pulse width would be (6.4 x .50) + (open time of 1.0 ms + other variables) = resulting in an approximate PW of 4.2 ms. Change the VE table cell value to 25, PW reduces to approximately 2.6 ms, resulting in less fuel going into the engine. Increase the VE table cell value to 75, PW increases to approximately 5.8 ms, resulting in more fuel going into the engine.

What values to use in the VE table? Good question. Unknown at the start. You ask about what to put into a VE table cell value, 25 or 18. The issue is that a VE table cell value of 25 will cause more fuel to be injected into the engine than if you entered a value of 18, see above.

The recommended way to proceed is to give the engine what it wants (been told this many times) – I had an issue with this as well. For example, if the engine operates with a VE table cell value of 30 at an engine load of 60 kPa and an RPM of 2500, you need to determine what VE table cell value is best for this engine at this RPM/load combination. To do this, increase the VE table cell value until the engine starts to operate poorly. Write the VE table cell value down. Then reduce the VE table cell value until the engine starts to operate poorly. Write the VE table cell value down. If you started at 30 as the cell value, increased to a maximum of 38, then you reduced the cell value to 26, the difference is 12, the average will be 6 and the new cell value will be 32 - enter. Continue to the next tuning block. This is my VE table as of 30 Mar 2024. You will notice that the column cell values decrease from top to bottom and increase from low RPM to max RPM:

VE Table - 30 Mar 2024.jpg (74.89 KiB) Viewed 335 times

The VE table cell values have been determined by doing road trials. Do not use this table as it is specific to my engine.

You have a wide band O2 sensor? This will assist as well. It will indicate if the VE table cell value that you have entered results in a fuel rich condition, or a fuel lean condition. Do not enable the O2 sensor at this time. You do not want it to change the tuning that you are doing.

"ASE at 80 degrees - set to 5 (this is for warm starts)”. After start fuel enrichment (ASE) is always used by Speeduino whenever the engine is started. The duration of ASE in seconds depends on the engine coolant temperature. If the engine coolant temperature is close to 80 degree C (normal engine operating temperature), there will only be a need for a short ASE duration. The colder the engine coolant, the longer the duration should be. ASE is a temporary fuel enrichment table that is used for a specific amount of time until the warmup fuel enrichment (WUE) table becomes active. ASE is used to prevent a fuel lean scenario. The accepted ASE duration from cold to normal engine operating temperature is accepted as being between a maximum time at cold of approximately 20 seconds to a low of one to two seconds at normal engine operating temperature.

Had the same question. “Set up a wedge table for spark (ignition timing). Works in the short term." There is no mention of a wedge table in the Speeduino documentation that I could find. I found this information in another forum, then asked the question here. This is an example of a spark wedge table - do not use for engine tuning:

Spark Table Example.jpg (70.15 KiB) Viewed 335 times

Experienced tuners use this type of table to start the tuning process - a tuning trick. The values allow for the engine to operate adequately until it is time to tune the spark table for best engine operation. You will notice that each column has the same cell value from top to bottom, and that the cell values increase from low to maximum RPM.

[Rednaxs60]

“You are looking to get a smooth stable idle. Set the idle spark timing to 10/15 degrees BTDC, most engines will idle in this ignition timing range. Jack up the idle above what you want to end at, say 2000/2500 RPM Keep the engine started. Adjust the VE table cell values for this RPM range. Once the idle at this RPM is smooth and stable, drop the RPM a few notches, repeat process as many times as necessary to get to the base idle you want "

The second important setting you want to get, is a minimum MAP reading. If you start with a MAP reading of approximately 60 kPa, you want to reduce this value to the smallest value possible with the engine operating well. It is a balance between the VE and spark table calibration.

I had this issue and had to understand exactly what is being recommended. You probably want an engine idle at approximately 900 RPM. You start the engine and it does not want to idle unless you hold the throttle open, manually increase the engine RPM to approximately 2000 RPM and hopefully the engine continues operation and not stop. Instead of using the gas pedal, use the engine throttle idle screw to have the engine operate at 2000 RPM (you may have to increase RPM to 2500). You adjust engine RPM at the engine not in TS.

Calibrate the VE table cell value for this engine RPM/load combination until the engine is operating smoothly. Reduce the engine RPM using the engine throttle idle screw to approximately 1500 RPM. Repeat the VE table calibration until the engine is operating well. Continue this process until you are at the desired engine idle speed. You will notice at these faster RPMs, the ignition timing that will be used is for the RPM column being used. This is normal and will not affect the end result.

When you have gotten to the engine idle speed you want, you will need to calibrate the engine ignition timing and VE values. If you started with an idle ignition timing setting of 10 degrees BTDC, move the spark table cell value up until the engine starts to operate poorly. Note the cell value. Decrease the spark timing until the engine operates poorly. Note the cell value. Note the difference between the two cell values and use an average cell value for the ignition timing. You may have a new cell value of 12. This is what the engine wants/likes. Doo the same for the VE values.

[Rednaxs60]

“This part referring to the VE tables, at the moment I don't even know how to get my hands on it, honestly it sounded like Chinese to me since I don't understand what numbers to put or why those numbers are put and even less where to put them in the table. I think this part is going to cost me a lot (and I know it is one of the most important ).” Don’t think so, the cost will be in the amount of time you use to understand and tune the engine. Don’t be in a rush, going fast is not your friend.

The VE, spark and AFR tables are in the “TUNING” tab. You know where these are. To change a cell value in any of these three tables, call up the table, select the appropriate cell, and manually input the new cell value. These cell values are changed to what is needed by experimentation. Using the AFR reading as a guide - not for tuning, change the VE table cell value to improve engine performance. Tuning is not done to the AFR table at this time, but you do not want the engine operating too rich, if so, the spark plugs will always look like the ones you have posted. It is not good to operate the engine in a lean fuel condition either. The lesson here is that for starters, you probably want to calibrate the VE table cell values for an indicated AFR reading of approximately 13, this will change as you progress the engine tune. As you tune the engine, the VE table cell values will change until you have a well calibrated VE table.

When you are finished with a tuning session, save the new engine tune. If you do not you may lose the new tuning information/data.

The same is applicable to the spark table. You start with a “wedge” table, and as you progress the engine tune, you will adjust the spark table cell values to complement the VE table settings for best engine performance. You will tune the VE table, then the spark table, repeat as necessary. This will be done several times until you have a well-balanced, calibrated set of tables.

You need to know what the ignition timing values are for your engine. The idle ignition timing value is the starting point. For my engine, it is 10 degrees BTDC at 1000 RPM. The maximum engine ignition timing is 45 degrees BTDC at 7500 RPM. The ignition timing between 1000 and 7500 RPM is 35 degrees BTDC (45-10). These numbers are a guide, but allows me to allocate the engine timing between the RPM ranges so tuning of the spark table can be done. There will be an RPM, above which the engine ignition timing stays the same.

This is in conjunction with the MAP kPa (engine load) reading. You use the MAP reading to determine the optimum VE and spark table cell values, not the AFR. You want the minimum MAP reading for each combination of engine RPM/load cell values.

Once you have a well-balanced, calibrated set of VE and spark tables, you can start to populate the AFR table cells. This was not done earlier because you need a good VE and spark data set to determine the required AFR value. The other consideration is that when you enable the O2 sensor, the ECU uses the AFR table to determine engine fueling requirements, the VE table is no longer used. I believe this is what happens. The better tuned the VE and spark tables, the more accurate the AFR table cell values will be for continued engine tuning. Once you enable the O2 sensor, you will continue to fine tune the engine tune.

[Rednaxs60]

Notice the fuel injector voltage correction is varied. The alternator should develop 14.2 VDC at idle (alternator reference voltage). If so, I would change the voltage correction between 12.4 and 15.6 to 100% to start. You can also adjust the table x-axis voltage values to suit your installation.

[lovosal]

God, !!
Thank you very much for taking so much time to explain all this to me and in such detail!! I'm still translating, but I think I've been able to understand a little more about how the VE and spark tables work!! My goodness, I don't know how to thank him... I could buy you some beers or some juices, it all depends on what he likes of course, but the problem is that I think he's a bit far away from me, hehehehehe.
An important detail is that in my car, unfortunately, since it is injection
TBI, I don't have the option of being able to adjust the idle speed to those rpms and maintain it so I can configure the VE and spark tables by tightening a screw. So I have to do it the old fashioned way, "press the accelerator pedal with a stick"
But the first step is to try to get the car to start, which at the moment is resisting me.
So I'm going to reread everything again, I'm going to take notes and once I do this, I will try the first changes in the car.
Seriously, Mr. Rednaxs60, you don't know how grateful I am, to you and of course to my other colleagues.
This is an important project for me, although for others I already tell you that it seems silly to prepare a small engine with little power and a single point.
Others saw their opportunity to deceive me and take the money from me, and there were many preparers who told me that they could get it with the original ECU and in the end nothing at all and on top of that, I had to pay for the time they "invested" in not getting anything .
Until someone mistakenly said, because it accidentally escaped, that my
The ECU was old and it made the corrections every 1,000 rpms and that was catastrophic for the engine, that is, the hardware was slow and could not take control of all the modifications that the car had made.... Just think about it all. The time and money it cost me to find out about my ECU makes me angry, to put it mildly.
And the fact that they take advantage of people who have no knowledge, that was the last straw.
Anyway, it would be nice to be able to thank you and others in some way.
It is being hard, due to my lack of knowledge in all fields, but every time I manage to take a step forward and see that it works, it makes up for everything.
I will be posting my progress in the next few days.
Thank you very much again, and I'm sorry for writing so much again.
All the best
P.S: a note:
The megasquirt supplier, here in my country, one of them, when I told him what I needed and told him the type of engine for which that programmable ECU was, the response was: "for that engine I won't sell you anything because you would have to make some modifications and that generates a lot of complications so I prefer to stay as a friend rather than have problems.
Thank god for this speeduino and its forum, one of the best I've seen so far