Any questions you have before you begin buying, building and installing.
#50059
RURC wrote:Will this require cats of some kind? I can get rid of the EGR system.
The use of catalytic converters is only a regulation issue. Note that re-tuning while using cats can pose potential issues, where they need certain combustion heat and properties to operate either properly or safely. Yes, I have lit cats on fire after moving to a custom performance tune, and they can fracture internally creating blockage, so keep stuff like that in-mind for safety. If your local regulations or use (racing, off-road, etc) do not require cats, then they are perhaps optional for you. If you need them, then run them, but keep an eye on them and learn what they need to function properly. ;)

If you delete EGR, that's fine for most purposes (again, if legal), however EGR is more for economy than emissions, and is used to both enable more timing with det-limited fuels and to stuff cylinders for higher effective compression. Bottom-line — disable if you wish, but don't trash the parts until you're sure you won't use them with advanced tuning later. Most don't, but … ;)

Agreed on sequential needs and purposes. My suggestion is to get it running in whatever way you can wrap your head around it. If you really think you need or want more advanced capabilities later; by then you'll know what wires to move or change and how to tune it. 8-)
#50060
The discussion of injection strategies is somehow fruitless. If you have an ECU that does sequential and the installation of a cam or distributor based phase sensor is no problem, I see no point for not going full sequential. The problem is that hardly any one has first hand experience of the changes on real engine, fitted with all possible injection methods.
Personally I have some opinions, as my favorite Fiat engines are available with hardly any fueling system possible.
Carburetor, Singel point injection, batch, paired and sequential.
As I have worked with engines for too long, I will not hop to a general opinion, just because some single engines I experienced, showed some special behavior. You can not make up a rule from a single event.
If an engine with a sequential injection runs smoother than the same engine with a single point injection, there are some indications the advanced Motronic is the cause. On the other hand, different compression, less well balanced engine parts and engine condition can make a much stronger impact.
Performance wise, a small change in the cam profile, for example, may change torque and HP more than another ECU strtegy.

On the other hand, some manufacturers take the cost and burden of installing two 4 cylinder Motronic systems on one V8 engine, one for each bank. At that time there where no high performance, full sequential, cylinder selective, self adapting 8 channel ECU´s available. So they doubled up. What such a system, like the Bosch Motronic 2.5 does, can be shown by a simple trick: Compare a good engine, that has been driven for about 200km, to the same engine, after you have erased the adaptation memory of the ECU. You will be surprised how lumpy the same engine runs without it´s stored adaptation values. It then has to learn the fine tune again, while driving.
If this Bosch ECU could be programmed as simple as a Speeduino, it would be a very good solution. Too bad Bosch did a very good job in preventing this. Just for the record: Some full sequential systems I know switch back to "normal" injection strategy on some rpm/load level. So max. HP are not affected at all. Long injection times seem to make sequentiell useless.

Coming back to your Fiero, this is not the highest performance engine, more solid bread and butter. I do not know what your skills and intentions are. What to do best depends mainly on that. I would try to use what sensor is available, as making things better than the manufacturer is not easy. I tend to leave the distributor in place, but use it only as a phase sensor, that tells the ECU which cylinder fires next. Better than complicated cam sensor mounting doing the same. Just manufacture some part to close the distributor top and inside remove any mechanical part not needed.
In most cases wasted spark is the best option for such an engine anyway. As you can mount the wasted spark coil away from the hottest spots, it is imo much more reliable than a newer COP system with many wires. COP seems to me like something more fancy than really useful.

The "usual" Speeduino" will only have 4 injector outputs. So you have to live with something less than full sequential.
I'm sure we will see universal 6-channel Speeduinos in the future, maybe with a more capable base than the 2560Mega. . One of the BMW specials could be used too, no need to use any VANOS stuff included. Just as others here, I do not see a real advantage with a sequential Speeduino.

Get familiar with the ECU installation and match that to what you have. This should lead you to the best solution.
Please realize, having a perfectly working after market injection/ ignition system in your car is only the start, not the end of the work! Tuning the engine until it runs as well or better compared with the stock ECU is no easy task done on an afternoon. Tuning cars is an art, not something anyone can do after reading an instruction manual for 5 minutes.
If your basic engine is not in perfect condition, don't even start with another ECU. You will never know what the problem is: A fault in the electronics, a bad or wrong connector, the screwed up tune or your worn out engine.

A really good idea is to buy some reliable wide band lambda controller with a gauge and fit it to your existing engine installation. Drive with it for a week or so to get familiar with what to expect in different driving conditions. Also, installing such a thing right is a good test for your electric abilities. Almost any wide band has a simulated narrow output, so you can simply replace your old oxygen sensor with it and don't have to weld. The stock ECU will not notice.
#50076
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm The discussion of injection strategies is somehow fruitless. If you have an ECU that does sequential and the installation of a cam or distributor based phase sensor is no problem, I see no point for not going full sequential. The problem is that hardly any one has first hand experience of the changes on real engine, fitted with all possible injection methods.
Personally I have some opinions, as my favorite Fiat engines are available with hardly any fueling system possible.
Carburetor, Singel point injection, batch, paired and sequential.
I will have to look into the way the OEM ECU utilizes the injectors. I was planning on using the distributor as the signal generator for firing. This will be the deepest I have dove into how the ECU controls the engine. I understand the process but I do not know the step by step on exactly how it is controlled.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm As I have worked with engines for too long, I will not hop to a general opinion, just because some single engines I experienced, showed some special behavior. You can not make up a rule from a single event.
How true that is.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm If an engine with a sequential injection runs smoother than the same engine with a single point injection, there are some indications the advanced Motronic is the cause. On the other hand, different compression, less well balanced engine parts and engine condition can make a much stronger impact.
I follow that.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm Performance wise, a small change in the cam profile, for example, may change torque and HP more than another ECU strtegy.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm On the other hand, some manufacturers take the cost and burden of installing two 4 cylinder Motronic systems on one V8 engine, one for each bank. At that time there where no high performance, full sequential, cylinder selective, self adapting 8 channel ECU´s available. So they doubled up. What such a system, like the Bosch Motronic 2.5 does, can be shown by a simple trick: Compare a good engine, that has been driven for about 200km, to the same engine, after you have erased the adaptation memory of the ECU. You will be surprised how lumpy the same engine runs without it´s stored adaptation values. It then has to learn the fine tune again, while driving.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm If this Bosch ECU could be programmed as simple as a Speeduino, it would be a very good solution. Too bad Bosch did a very good job in preventing this. Just for the record: Some full sequential systems I know switch back to "normal" injection strategy on some rpm/load level. So max. HP are not affected at all. Long injection times seem to make sequentiell useless.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm Coming back to your Fiero, this is not the highest performance engine, more solid bread and butter. I do not know what your skills and intentions are. What to do best depends mainly on that. I would try to use what sensor is available, as making things better than the manufacturer is not easy. I tend to leave the distributor in place, but use it only as a phase sensor, that tells the ECU which cylinder fires next. Better than complicated cam sensor mounting doing the same. Just manufacture some part to close the distributor top and inside remove any mechanical part not needed.
Yes, The Fiero engine is noting special. It is just a solid running reliable engine. My intentions are to keep it on the road for many years. The problem is that finding good used ECU's is really becoming difficult. You cannot buy a new one. I run a rather large Fiero car club and I have members that have spent weeks finding and ECU. I want to change that. In the end it would be nice if I could come up with a way for the Fiero community to have an alternative for when the time comes that it is just too difficult to get and ECU. Taking care of the distributor is really going to be the simplest part of this whole thing.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm In most cases wasted spark is the best option for such an engine anyway. As you can mount the wasted spark coil away from the hottest spots, it is imo much more reliable than a newer COP system with many wires. COP seems to me like something more fancy than really useful.
The term "wasted spark coil" is not familiar to me. Can you elaborate?
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm The "usual" Speeduino" will only have 4 injector outputs. So you have to live with something less than full sequential.
I'm sure we will see universal 6-channel Speeduinos in the future, maybe with a more capable base than the 2560Mega. . One of the BMW specials could be used too, no need to use any VANOS stuff included. Just as others here, I do not see a real advantage with a sequential Speeduino.
We have been looking into the Holley system. My son uses them on occasion where he works. But the cost is just a lot and this really seems like a great option for such a simple system like we are doing.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm Get familiar with the ECU installation and match that to what you have. This should lead you to the best solution.
Please realize, having a perfectly working after market injection/ ignition system in your car is only the start, not the end of the work! Tuning the engine until it runs as well or better compared with the stock ECU is no easy task done on an afternoon. Tuning cars is an art, not something anyone can do after reading an instruction manual for 5 minutes.
If your basic engine is not in perfect condition, don't even start with another ECU. You will never know what the problem is: A fault in the electronics, a bad or wrong connector, the screwed up tune or your worn out engine.
Luckily the engine we have is in great shape. I completely understand your points here.
Chris Wolfson wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:46 pm A really good idea is to buy some reliable wide band lambda controller with a gauge and fit it to your existing engine installation. Drive with it for a week or so to get familiar with what to expect in different driving conditions. Also, installing such a thing right is a good test for your electric abilities. Almost any wide band has a simulated narrow output, so you can simply replace your old oxygen sensor with it and don't have to weld. The stock ECU will not notice.
The OEM ECU did not use a O2 sensor so the cat was deleted years ago. I just was not sure if like the newer OEM ECU's an aftermarket would be looking for O2 readings for adjusting.


Thank you so very much for your fantastic response. I have a lot to look at and learn . The great thing is I have to time to get this right.
#50084
Maybe just a few points to the previous text I wrote. It seems you have some incorrect ideas about ECU stuff.

Wide band oxygen sensor
is NOT something related to emission control and catalytic converters you threw out of your car. Please get that.
It is a very precise measuring sensor and needs a controller to work and a display. Sometimes controller and display are integrated into one part.
The controller is used by the ECU AND by the tuner to adjust fueling. If, one day, your tune is perfect, you can eliminate the wide band. Anyway, at that point you will have realized, how useful this instrument is and leave it with the ECU for limited auto adjustment and frequent checks.

To make this perfectly clear: Without a wide band sensor there is NO aftermarket ECU tuning! Impossible. So get one. It is no maybe later, but the first thing to get. If about 150$ for it are too much, keep your car stock.
Get it before you need it, put it into your daily driver and become familiar with what it shows and what a working engine uses while running under different load conditions. Better than installing it to an engine with basic tune and wander what might be right or wrong.
Theoretically, you do not need a display, as TunerStudio, the mighty software (another 100$), displays it at the screen. In practice, you should have an independent gauge to verify what TS shows. All beginners make the same mistakes by taking short cuts at ECU wires and ground points. At least one exact working gauge helps a lot to sort that out.

If you want a good, reliable, wide band that is worth it's money, go to 14point7. Alan offers his the Spartan2 Lambda controller, which is very compact, reliable and needs no calibration. Buy the sensor there, too, as he sells real (non fake) Bosch ones. His display is an easy match to the Spartan2. His service is first class, not the usual ignorance known of other brands.

Other products will work, too, even be much more fancy and confusing. Look Innovate, AEM, Zeitronics, PLX or google "wide band lambda display". Some dealers put fake, Chinese Bosch LSU sensors into the set's to make more profit. Even in combination with real controllers and displays. These usually give all kind of problems or fail very soon. If you buy directly at the manufacturer, 15$ more can be very cheap...

Trigger
Get familiar with what they do. It is not your job to decide what gives the ECU signals. It is the ECU. You will need a crank wheel with about 30-60 teeth. The distributor signal will not work well. On the other hand, it can give the additional cam signal, which is very useful for advanced fueling strategies. So crank first, distributor (running at half crank speed) maybe later. It does not determine "when to fire". It is the most essential information for the whole ECU.

Wasted spark
Such a coil has PAIRS of high voltage outputs. The spark energy travels from output 1 to spark plug 1, then to engine ground, back through spark plug 2 and finally to the coils output 2. No distributor. Obsolete.

The two Spark plugs are at cylinders which reach UDC at the same time. In a 4 stroke engine, one of these fires the new charge, while the other is filled with exhaust gas at the same time. So both plugs spark at the same time. As a spark travels very easy in a hot gas, most of the energy is left on the plug with the fresh, cold mixture.
Such coils are available as 2, 4 and 6 cylinder versions ( 3 and 5 cylinder do not work!). You can get passive coils and modules that include the drivers. Speeduino is best used with build in drivers. Cheap.



Please, get good information
There is a lot of information about injection and ignition on the web. Use the Speeduino wiki. The MegaSquirt has a lot of information too. If you are shy reading, I would go there: http://extraefi.co.uk/support/downloads.html
You find documents "basic fuel injection" and ignition there. Read it. Very compact with colorful pictures. It does not get more easy!

I uploaded logs and last tune and dyno plots look[…]

you could set 'skip revolutions' to 3, then it wou[…]

Hi, I am trying to assign Signed values to the x-a[…]

blitzbox

I've finally figured out why MAP and Lambda weren'[…]

Still can't find what you're looking for?